Islam: Schizophrenia and Deception?

[StrongHeartsWin]

Since the events of 9-11 we have heard time and time again leaders such as Bush or Blaire pleating words like, *“we have no issue with Islam, a great religion deserving of great respect, but rather with the terrorists that seek to ...” in attempts at trying to head off criticisms or a view of The West or Christian nations/states against Islamic nations.

However, I take issue with the description that Islam is a “great” religion deserving "respect", and that leaders in their efforts to describe it as such are merely giving lip service to it and the Koran it springs from.

I put forth that the Koran is a book which fosters intolerance, vengefulness, violence and non-mercy. It lacks a consistant example of behaviour that fosters understanding and forgiveness and this can be seen by the promises it reserves for nonbeleivers in this world and the 'hereafter'. Verses that state the contrary are evidence that it is a work displaying schizophrenia, and the inability to admit to that and proclaim the opposite is flat deception and denial that perpetuates violence.

My remarks are not aimed at the people of Islamic faith, but at Islam and the Koran itself. And, I fully concede that all the above can be directed at the Christian and Jewish Holy Books as well. But for purposes of this thread, I am focused on the point that Islam and the Koran are NOT "great" or deserving of "respect," as has been put forth to appease and calm those that may feel threatened by recent world events.

Standing the Koran and Islam alone under the spotlight for examination, I proclaim they are perverted creations which sow enmity amongst man and that is not a “great” thing deserving of "respect."

*quote above paraphrased

[Compugasm]

Jesus said the same thing on his radio show a few weeks ago.

[The_Genius]

The problem with most people is, they stereotype the religion of Islam as "terrorist's religion" because of their lack of knowledge and understanding. Yes, I admit there are extremists who commit horrible deeds in the name of Islam.... But those extremists can not be considered as 'Muslims' because they do not live by the profound Islamic moral codes. Just because Bin Laden is terrorist does not mean Islam or the Holy Quran promotes terrorism. The same applies to Christianity... I have no right what so ever to call Christianity an "evil" religion just because Crusaders murdered 70000 natives of Jerusalem; Jesus's teachings are not comprised of such things.


According to CNN and BBC's surveys, even after 9/11 and London bombings Islam - a religion of peace - is gaining more converts than any other religions. Islam is world's fastest growing religion. Before someone brings up the same old "population growth" argument, I must say its also due to conversion in countries like USA, UK and France.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: The_Genius The problem with most people is, they stereotype the religion of Islam as "terrorist's religion" because of their lack of knowledge and understanding.

The problem with this defense for deflecting the charge of a religion that fosters terrorism is that someone could always claim that the critic just doesn`t have enough knowledge and understanding. What if a person studied Islam for 50 years and then proclaimed it was a religion that fostered, condones, and promotes terrorism?

Would you say 50 years would be enough? -- and what if he had memorized the Koran and graduated from a prestigious Islamic university and declared such about Islam? Would you accept his word then? No, you would fall back on the same argument and say he still doesn`t understand because you won`t accept an understanding of it being not peaceful that differs from yours -- despite perhaps only 3 years of study or not graduating from an Islamic school yourself.

Your defense is weak because the bar can always be pushed back and you have not defined what "knowledge and understanding" is. Those terms are made to order for you.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin The problem with this defense for deflecting the charge of a religion that fosters terrorism is that someone could always claim that the critic just doesn`t have enough knowledge and understanding. What if a person studied Islam for 50 years and then proclaimed it was a religion that fostered, condones, and promotes terrorism? Would you say 50 years would be enough? -- and what if he had memorized the Koran and graduated from a prestigious Islamic university and declared such about Islam? Would you accept his word then? No, you would fall back on the same argument and say he still doesn`t understand because you won`t accept an understanding of it being not peaceful that differs from yours -- despite perhaps only 3 years of study or not graduating from an Islamic school yourself. Your defense is weak because the bar can always be pushed back and you have not defined what "knowledge and understanding" is. Those terms are made to order for you.

Again... your line of argument is not only irrational but one-dimensional. If you are studying Islam for 50 years "with the intention of proving Islam promotes terrorism" than you would do the same anti-Muslims do, which is quoting what pleases you. You can only attain the knowledge and understanding I am talking about, if you examine Islam with an objective mindset.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: The_Genius Again... your line of argument is not only irrational but one-dimensional. If you are studying Islam for 50 years "with the intention of proving Islam promotes terrorism" than you would do the same anti-Muslims do, which is quoting what pleases you.

TG, who said anything about with "the intention of proving Islam promotes terrorism?" Where did I write that? I said that if after all that studying they came to view it as such. Please be more accurate in reading skills so that you do not come away with, or intentionally insert an inference that is not explicitly there.

You can only attain the knowledge and understanding I am talking about, if you examine Islam with an objective mindset.

So, anyone who after examining Islam but not accepting it as the Word of God has not obtained knowledge or understanding of it because they do not have an objective mind? Is that what you are saying? Only those with an objective mind after examining it can obtained knowledge and understanding that lets them know it is the Word of God?

You seem to be intolerant in what kinds of people can be "objective" -- in your view -- only those who come to accept Islam. You are helping to prove, or at least give weight to the OP.

I hope you keep coming back because it would be nice to have a Muslim as a soundboard for my argument against it.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin So, anyone who after examining Islam but not accepting it as the Word of God has not obtained knowledge or understanding of it because they do not have an objective mind? Is that what you are saying?

and when did I say that? Do you struggle to interpret things properly? I hope not. Not believing Quran is Word of God is one thing, but obsessively accusing it of terrorism (without evidence) is another. If you keep brainwashing yourself by the media and 'what they think of Islam', then I guess no matter what I say, you will keep on repeating "Islam fosters terrorism". May be you are incapable of thinking critically, which is preventing you from separating a religion from extremists.



and oh yes, I will be around each time to refute you. I'm already loving it...

[StrongHeartsWin]

So, TheGenius, can a person study the Koran objectively and still reject it as the Word of God?

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: The_Genius ... and oh yes, I will be around each time to refute you. I'm already loving it...

Then we can all expect this thread to stay very active and grow quite long. Glad to see you on board for the ride.

[Compugasm]

Quote by: The_Genius Islam is world's fastest growing religion.

The fact any of these religions are growing, is something I find discouraging.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin So, TheGenius, can a person study the Koran objectively and still reject it as the Word of God?

Yes...

We humans are different from one another. One thing applies to me, may not apply to you. Thus, one man may accept the Quran as Word of God and other one may reject it.

Religion is a personal choice...

[The_Genius]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Then we can all expect this thread to stay very active and grow quite long. Glad to see you on board for the ride.

Always a pleasure....

By the way, I may not be online 24/7 to debate you but I will try to be as regular as I can.....

[StrongHeartsWin]

After the OP, since TGenius brought up the issue of terrorism being associated with Islam, I thought I would touch on that first.

Of course, Islam, to include the clerics and their rhetoric, the Hadith they quote from, the education system in Islamic countries, and the Koran DO foster and promote a breeding ground for terrorism and violence -- if not plain murder.

Perhaps one of the first things that makes minds fertile for terrorism or murder is intolerance and the desire to use force to submit those different from you to your way. After all, Islam, itself means to “submit.” Don`t confuse it with a willful submission, but know that in the Koran it is a submission brought on by coercion as can be seen in the Koran.

Let`s first look at Allah`s chosen general and Messenger, Muhammed`s exhortations to terrorize those who had “disbelieved” his ‘Message’ when after he had been ordered to go forth to spread it, and if that were not enough, proscribe the manner in which one should do it -- beheading and mutiliation.

8:5 Even as thy Lord caused thee (Muhammad) to go forth from thy home with the Truth, and lo! a party of the believers were averse (to it).

8:6 Disputing with thee of the Truth after it had been made manifest, as if they were being driven to death visible.

soon leading to:

8:12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

8:13 That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

Now, does that set a fine example for a role model to make for his followers? Allah and Muhammed don`t sound very tolerant of “non-believers” not being receptive to his ‘Message,’ now, does he?

Where is tolerance if one is not allowed to dispute or reject what one chooses to? If that is ‘tolerance,’ it sure is enough to throw fear (i.e. terrorize) into my heart.

Remember, that is the kind of ‘tolerance’ the Koran teaches from the example of its prophet -- one that dishes out "severe punishment," not only in the torturous hell afterlife he has reserved for you for eternity, but here on Earth, too, just for opposing what one chooses to oppose.

[The_Genius]

Ok, once again I must emphasize the word 'context'...

The world in which we are living today is not the same compare to the world in which Mohammed (saw) lived or Quran revealed...


Lets go back to early Islamic history...


Prophet Mohammed (saw) was born in a rich, powerful and very sophisticated Pagan tribe of Arabia. However, at a young age he started questioning the traditional and religious beleifs of his family/people. He simply saw "idol worship" is illogical. After he received revelation from Allah (God) through the Angel Gabriel, he started preaching Monotheism or the religion of Islam. At that time his people became more and more angry at him since his teachings clashed with their Pagan beliefs. I must mention that they (Pagans) were a backward and intolerant group of people who not only condemned new ideas but participated in rape, molestation, war and incestuous deeds. They began torturing Mohammed (saw) and his loyal followers, which made Mohammed (saw) leave his birthplace (Mecca) for Medina... He was prosecuted...


After Mohammed (saw) stayed in Medina for few years - as the number of Muslims grew - they started making treaties with Pagan Leaders. Part of the treaty included that Mohammed (saw) and his followers would visit Mecca for annual pilgrimage. However, the Pagans broke the agreement and started attacking the Muslims whenever they went to Mecca. This led to confrontations between them... Having no other options, Muslims took up swords against the warring Pagan tribes.


The important thing for you to know is, Mohammed (saw) hated Christians and Jews. In fact, at his young age he used to debate with Christians and Jews but he never insulted them or their beliefs. He was forced to defend himself and his followers from Pagan Arabs who did not know the meaning of "negotiation".


Therefore, you must not quote things out of context. For 23 years Mohammed (saw) and his followers had to fight the Pagans; the Quran was revealed during that time. Here is a good example... According to Christian and Jewish doctrines, Islam does not come from God and Mohammed (saw) is not his messenger. Those doctrines totally deny Islam... But yet Muslims respect the Christians and Jews by referring to them as "People of the Book". So your idea of "Musilms hating everyone" is wrong.


I hope I answered you. I tried... if you aren't satisfied, ask me again.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: The_Genius Ok, once again I must emphasize the word 'context'...

You gave an explanation below without referencing the Islamic writings you are gleaning that from. Please let me know which Islamic writing you are referencing it from so that I can address that?

But, all that justification you did still does not blunt the point that such verses do not make a breeding ground for terrorism. You went on into detail justifying those acts due to the situation at the time, one where Muslims claim they were attacked and had no choice but to fight. That same reasoning can be put forth today to justify "beheading," and in fact, it is. Islamic Terrorists view they have no choice but to fight in order to survive and to continue to promote Islam.

A role model using that excuse in the past makes it a precedent to use for future generations and not one place at the end of those verses did Muhammed say, "this action we have seen today has only been allowed for this time and is not to be used for justifying future acts."

8:13 does not end its promise in the past to correlate with that time. It speaks in the absolute with a dreadful tone to strike terror into the hearts of ANYONE as a STANDING warning (not just those he had recently killed).

Here it is again:

8:13 That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

The world in which we are living today is not the same compare to the world in which Mohammed (saw) lived or Quran revealed...

Then the Koran is not a book to look for to base one`s life and decisions on today.

Another point to note on the recent verses I just quoted, Muhammed came upon those people and the only opposition that was shown was the refusal to believe his "Message." There was no report of physical hostility and there was no report that they an armed force. They simply came upon them and what insued was Muhammad`s intolerance for opposition and then the bloodletting.

The fact that this happen in a past time time, no matter what the historical context, is witness to intolerance and no way justifies beheading those who don`t agree with you.

So, can you say Muhammed was unjust for his actions as described in this Koranic episode with that information given to us here?

Beheading is severe punishment. As a standing order, if not declared unjust, it stands as an act not declared wrong. If not declared wrong as a way to punish and strike fear into people`s hearts, then it stands as a model for those who hang on the words and deeds Muhammed has done.

[StrongHeartsWin]

You see, here is the exact kind of nondiscriminating statement that incites mistrust and then violence in those caught in the grip of Islamic religious fervor that stems from their belief and suredness that their God is the real God and their Book is the Real Word of God and that it is innerrant:

4:101 And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.

Now, are ALL disbelievers, either in that time or place or this time or place, enemies to ‘Believers?’ C’mon, let us reason together. Surely in that land at that time, just as now, there were disbelieving women and children or old decrepit men who while being disbelieving offered no physical threat to Muhammed or his ban of marauding men armed with their sabres ready to smite the heads off of all those who opposed them, weren`t there? Of course so. Why believe that ALL disbelievers are enemies or promote the idea that they are if that is not going to add to the possibility of living peacefully nearby to one another?

Is this the paranoia that infects the terrorists today, that all disbelievers are enemies to them? They can`t be blamed for believing so because they get the message right from their prophet in the book they look for instruction on how to conduct their lives and a man of great respect to them. What nonsense is this?!

Doesn`t Muhammed know how to parse his words by qualifying in such a manner as to spare the innocent or help lay the groundwork of trust or promote the possibility of trust -- perhaps such as?:

“In truth, only some of the disbelievers are an open enemy to you in whatever land you may find yourself in. Remember there are those who are not responsible for their place of birth and present age, or physical condition, or those who wish no ill upon us, who you may not touch or view as an enemy -- eventhough they be disbelievers for they offer no threat to us in their condition. Be discerning in who you perceive as your enemy for even grain sometimes gets mixed in with rice.”

Apparantly not. All those innocent disbelieving people are just too much trouble to sort out from the disbelievers who may be physically aggressive to Muhammed and his men or oppose their belief.

I guess that is the mind set of men who can blow themselves up in buses, cafes, and fly planes into buildings, -- the unqualified reasoning thoughts that mirror Islam`s Prophet -- that ALL nonbelievers are their enemies so it therefore is ok to target them in their battles. Enemies are the target in battle, aren`t they?

After all, if they are mere disbelievers, they are enemies.

[Athena]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Since the events of 9-11 we have heard time and time again leaders such as Bush or Blaire pleating words like, *“we have no issue with Islam, a great religion deserving of great respect, but rather with the terrorists that seek to ...” in attempts at trying to head off criticisms or a view of The West or Christian nations/states against Islamic nations. However, I take issue with the description that Islam is a “great” religion deserving "respect", and that leaders in their efforts to describe it as such are merely giving lip service to it and the Koran it springs from. I put forth that the Koran is a book which fosters intolerance, vengefulness, violence and non-mercy. It lacks a consistant example of behaviour that fosters understanding and forgiveness and this can be seen by the promises it reserves for nonbeleivers in this world and the 'hereafter'. Verses that state the contrary are evidence that it is a work displaying schizophrenia, and the inability to admit to that and proclaim the opposite is flat deception and denial that perpetuates violence. My remarks are not aimed at the people of Islamic faith, but at Islam and the Koran itself. And, I fully concede that all the above can be directed at the Christian and Jewish Holy Books as well. But for purposes of this thread, I am focused on the point that Islam and the Koran are NOT "great" or deserving of "respect," as has been put forth to appease and calm those that may feel threatened by recent world events. Standing the Koran and Islam alone under the spotlight for examination, I proclaim they are perverted creations which sow enmity amongst man and that is not a “great” thing deserving of "respect." *quote above paraphrased

Do you know any Muslims? The Muslims I have known have been very reverent, respectful and gentle people. However, they are also influenced by other cultures, while the American culture tends to produce very brash and disrespectful people, regardless of their religion. As religions have spread through many cultures, we need to distinguish the effect of culture of these cultures on the religions, and the effect of the religion on the cultures. Being aware of your own cultural and religious biases of course.

[Epistemologist]

The only reason formal religions such as Islam are criticized so much is because they have written records, i.e. holy books, that document an inherent element of all humans, which is to dislike that which is different. So, before we go along attacking a quasi-problem in our myopic perspective, we ought to try to change human nature. But can we really do that? I don't think we can.

[Athena]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin You see, here is the exact kind of nondiscriminating statement that incites mistrust and then violence in those caught in the grip of Islamic religious fervor that stems from their belief and suredness that their God is the real God and their Book is the Real Word of God and that it is innerrant: 4:101 And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you. .

What a good quote. Yes, the non believers are the enemy and how very wise to not push the conflict, but to instead conceal the difference and go in peace.

[Athena]

Quote by: Epistemologist The only reason formal religions such as Islam are criticized so much is because they have written records, i.e. holy books, that document an inherent element of all humans, which is to dislike that which is different. So, before we go along attacking a quasi-problem in our myopic perspective, we ought to try to change human nature. But can we really do that? I don't think we can.

I do think we can bring out the best in humanity and reduce that which is not so helpful. Keeping in mind, all about us serves a good purpose, only sometimes we may not approach a situtation in the most helpful way. This is especially true when we are not paying attention to emotions, our own and others, and proceed as though emotions do not matter. I think especially Americans are prone to this. It can make them rather insensitive and offensive, and then when there is a problem, they are quick to blame the other.

To keep this discussion on subject- I want to bring awareness, that our interpretation of a verse from any holy book, tells more about oursleves than we might realize.

When we approach this subject, what is in our hearts? Are we feeling hostile or loving? What a holy book says to us, depends very much which human emotion we are experiencing when put our thoughts to the subject. I have noticed many people are coming to these forums with a high degree of hostility, and it is really funny when they do this, and then project their own hostility into others. This is what makes wars. Project our hostility on others while holding the belief that are good people only defending ourselves from the "bad" people. Who is attacking a muslim and thinking himself to be hostile, threatening and the cause of the problem? Who is attacking and seeing himself as a good person who leads the world to peace? How is that peace achieved?