Islam: Schizophrenia and Deception?

[ByaKya]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin “The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.” From the Tabari VIII:122, Ishaq:515 The passage comes from Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Hisham`s The Life of the Prophet of Allah which was translated by A. Guillaume and titled “The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah.” Oxford Univ. Press, 1955. Kinanah`s torture can be cross referenced for corroberation here, where the Muslim view admits that it is reported by Ibn Ishaq. Their only way to dispute the torture is by saying it is reported only by Ibn Ishaq -- but that should be natural for he was the earliest chronicler of Muhammed`s life. However, Ibn Ishaq`s work, and later his work revised by Ibn Hisham is never rejected in whole. Ibn Ishaq is known to be "the first to collect the accounts of the expeditions of the Messenger of Allah and record them," as corroberated by another early scholar of Islam, Ibn Sa`d. The Sirat Rasul Allah is thought to be the oldest extant biography on Mohammed which was written prior to any major writings of Hadith. It`s tranlated works, The Life of Muhammed by Mr. Guillaume is considered one of the most complete works in translation available to Westerners. The translated quote is listed on many sites, citing the page number it is taken from in the book. I have not found any sites refuting it, eventhough it is quoted widespread. Perhaps the passage is an embarrassing one that is hard to deal with. Silence may be telling. As said above, it can be corroberated in paraphrase form on wikipedia.

So this isnt in the Koran but in fact from a biography? well then, its not part of the religion since it isnt in the koran.
There are no biographies of christ in chuchs for the same reason.this book is in the fiction section of the library

thanks for playing, rofl.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: ByaKya So this isnt in the Koran but in fact from a biography? well then, its not part of the religion since it isnt in the koran.

Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Hisham`s work has not been rejected outright by Islamic scholars, and in fact is considered highly for its completeness and accuracy of the early times of Islam, and their works are looked to in the Islamic world to learn about the life of Muhammed. If not, then why isn`t there wide rejection and condemnation of it and the writers of it?

It shows us, that Muhammed was a tortureor, and it corroborates the parts in the Koran for Allah using Muhammed to use "terror" as one of his weapons of choice. Terrorist be thy name, for terror be they tool, Muhammed.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Hisham`s work has not been rejected outright by Islamic scholars, and in fact is considered highly for its completeness and accuracy of the early times of Islam, and their works are looked to in the Islamic world to learn about the life of Muhammed. If not, then why isn`t there wide rejection and condemnation of it and the writers of it? It shows us, that Muhammed was a tortureor, and it corroborates the parts in the Koran for Allah using Muhammed to use "terror" as one of his weapons of choice. Terrorist be thy name, for terror be they tool, Muhammed.

So its not part of the koran, hey thanks for clearing that up.
bring something from the koran, thats the book in question, not a biography which is probably fiction.
Im sure there is more than enough rejection of this book. GG

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: ByaKya So its not part of the koran, hey thanks for clearing that up.

The Koran corroberates that most probably those deeds describing Muhammed`s actions in that text were far more likely than not. Here is how a few verses, already listed above, in the Koran describe Muhammed`s use of torture and terror:

8:5 Even as thy Lord caused thee (Muhammad) to go forth from thy home with the Truth, and lo! a party of the believers were averse (to it).

8:6 Disputing with thee of the Truth after it had been made manifest, as if they were being driven to death visible.

soon leading to:

8:12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

8:13 That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

You`re welcome for my clearing your confusion up.

...bring something from the koran, thats the book in question, not a biography which is probably fiction.

Enjoy the corroberation above on Muhammed`s torturous and terroristic tendencies.

Im sure there is more than enough rejection of this book. GG

Then show us proof that most leading Islamic scholars and clerics have rejected the most early descriptions of Muhammed`s life. I doubt you will find them because Islam draws from the Hadith and those biographies on Muhammed to help give more detail clarification to the Koran and Muhammed`s life.

Ok, waiting for you to show us a large number of prominant Muslims and their sects rejecting those books as not valid. Aren`t we all waiting for him to do so?

[Kuldeep]

Aren`t we all waiting for him to do so?

I need not wait because I am more than sure that no pious person, what to speak of Allah, could direct such verdicts. He would say "Hate the sin but not the sinner !!!!"

After reading last few pages of conversation in this thread, I got a hint for the sake of descipline maintenance, some hard punishment might have been laid down for smooth fuctioning of society, but why non-believers or believers of other faiths are directed to be tortured or eliminated?????:(

I would love to have a clear cut straight forward answer from ByaKya, or anybody else ! However, I remember somewhere he mentioned that is simple mis-interpretation. I pointed out a that very instant as to why the interpretation is not being corrected by Islamic Scholars, so that many more killings are avoided!!!!:eek:

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Athena "8:13 That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment." This is the same as the God in the Torah and Christian bible. I don't understand the point of this quote when separated out for Islam alone.

What if Christianity or all other religions except for Islam did not exist and there was nothing else from another belief to compare the quote with. In that case it would be left standing on its own with the Koran. Would you still not understand it and how it is related to the horrible things done just prior to it?

[Athena]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin What if Christianity or all other religions except for Islam did not exist and there was nothing else from another belief to compare the quote with. In that case it would be left standing on its own with the Koran. Would you still not understand it and how it is related to the horrible things done just prior to it?

I am not sure I am the one lacking understanding in the quote, but I am confused about what you think is important enough to debate?

The God of Abraham is a jealous, revenge, fearsome and punishing God. All the religions warn against opposing this God. Why are making an issue of a what the Quran says verses what they all say?

I think what troubles you is the cultural differences. The US opposed cruel and unusual punishments from the beginning of its democratic republic. I think early on the western civilizations developed a distaste for torture, however, on occasion it has sanctioned torture, and unfortunately under Bush has returned to torture. It appears what people determine is right or wrong, is pretty self serving, and perhaps we shouldn't pat ourselves on the backs so hard, because we could sink the lowest levels. We might want to ask ourselves, under what conditions are human being gentle and under what conditions are they brutal? We do not stone people, although the bible says to do so. I am sure there are Muslims who are equally repulsed by such things. When modern people living relatively sheltered lives, read awful things in their holy books, they rationalize that is the way it was in the past, but not today. However, if people today live harsh lives, they will not see the wrong in the harshness spoken of in their holy books.

War with many Asian countries is very unpleasant because cruelity is not seen as so wrong. I think it is a mistake to select out specific quotes from holy books and make too much of them. On the other hand, it is very important to know thy enemy. What we are the conditions of these people's lives and how are they apt to react when we engage with them?

Also do you clearly understand what oil has to do with our engagement with Arabs? These countries have one resource, oil. They did not develop because they did not have the resources and conditions for development. Once that oil is gone, the revenue for the hospitals and schools, etc. is gone.
Britian and the US have gladly taken this oil for low prices. They have attempted to control governments, and used Israel to serve their intent to take oil for the lowest possible price. This is called exploiting and exploited people will defend themselves when they realize what is happening and believe they can defend themselves.

It is not just that we have exploited them, but we have also treated them very badly! The trouble started in Iran when our troops were careless drivers and killing Iranians and nothing was done to stop this. We bring in liquior and act as though it is our right to do anything we want to do. We bring in women and insist they have the right to do things as they would in western civilizations. This is wrong. A peopl'e country, is not so different from a person's home. Good manners and consideration of others, could have prevented the trouble we have today, and I don't think we should be throwing stones.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Kuldeep I need not wait because I am more than sure that no pious person, what to speak of Allah, could direct such verdicts. He would say "Hate the sin but not the sinner !!!!" After reading last few pages of conversation in this thread, I got a hint for the sake of descipline maintenance, some hard punishment might have been laid down for smooth fuctioning of society, but why non-believers or believers of other faiths are directed to be tortured or eliminated?????:( I would love to have a clear cut straight forward answer from ByaKya, or anybody else ! However, I remember somewhere he mentioned that is simple mis-interpretation. I pointed out a that very instant as to why the interpretation is not being corrected by Islamic Scholars, so that many more killings are avoided!!!!:eek:

The text in question is not even in the koran, its written by a guy talking about what may have happened.
Its pretty ridiculous to judge any religion on some book someone wrote about it.

[Athena]

Quote by: Kuldeep I need not wait because I am more than sure that no pious person, what to speak of Allah, could direct such verdicts. He would say "Hate the sin but not the sinner !!!!" After reading last few pages of conversation in this thread, I got a hint for the sake of descipline maintenance, some hard punishment might have been laid down for smooth fuctioning of society, but why non-believers or believers of other faiths are directed to be tortured or eliminated?????:( I would love to have a clear cut straight forward answer from ByaKya, or anybody else ! However, I remember somewhere he mentioned that is simple mis-interpretation. I pointed out a that very instant as to why the interpretation is not being corrected by Islamic Scholars, so that many more killings are avoided!!!!:eek:

Kuldeep, holy books can not be corrected, because it is believed by the believers that these books are the word of God, and must never be changed. It is easier to change the Christian bible, because the original documents were in a foriegn language that had to be interpreted, and then people could claim the original interpretation was incorrect. But still people get really crazy about changing the wording of holy books, unless you give the new book a new name, such as Good News or New Living Bible, and only in a modern,cosmetpolitan society accustom to changes is this possible. Where people live as they did since the time the holy books were written, change is not acceptable. Change is often seen as threatening or even evil. Changing the wording of a holy book would be blasphemy, and a terrible sin against God.

Keep in mind the Christian bible still speaks of stoning people. I could pull out a lot of none sense from the Christian bible, but itsn't worth the work. One of our first Presidents, Thomas Jefferson did edit the Christian bible, in an effort to make it compatible with science, but his edited bible never caught on.

People really need to accept when these books were written and why they say things that are not acceptable today. They need to accept humans exactly the same as themselves, wrote these books. They lived in a different time and place, but they were no more inspired by a God than we are today.

Sanity for all of humanity would be nice, but I don't think that will happen too soon.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Athena Mohammed was pretty much like Genghis Khan and Attilla the Hum and no way am I like these men.

In what ways was he like them? Please be specific with your descriptions.

I am saying the age of our concepts, plays into the "authority" we give them. Especially when societies experience rapid change, some cling to the past. So a few things play into preserving the past.

Is Allah bound by time? Isn`t he timeless? So, why did he allow or order Muhammed to torture and murder in his name then if torture and murder is bad to Allah? Or perhaps, torture and murder is not always bad to Allah? Would you be willing to accept that a God of mercy and love dabbles in torture and murder?

Why exclude Jews and Christians who also have factions that just as caught up in this religious problem? Fundamentalism is part of all religions. Both the Christian bible and Quran have stories of doing things like stoning people, and exiling the sick. ...

Yes, but Christians will point out to you the verses that deliver people from having to be under the Old Law and do those horrendous things. Where in the Koran does it state a break with the violent ways Muhammed showed us at the order of Allah or in Allah`s name? I don`t see that clear break or limiting order stating that what Muhammed did is not available for emulation by future generations of Muslims.

Thankful Christians are no longer looking for witches and have stopped torturing women to make them confess to being witches.

Because the western world has embraced reason to lift them out of the quagmire of the hideous things in the Bible, Muslims are killing in Allah`s name, reasoning it ok to do so based on the unprovable that Allah definitely exists.

But please, don't pick solely on Muslims, because the problem is not just Islam.

We skeptics don`t. Look at the menu in the Religion forum category. There are much more threads critical of the Bible and Christianity than Islam. This thread is only one of a few targeting Islam. And, threads rightfully can choose to examine one faith for the benefit of debate without having to make it a comparative study of all religions side by side.

Christian countries today are pleasant, not because of the religion, but because of their full bellies and sense of power.

I am the first to say that Christianity is still a bane to the western world.

This moment in time would be so much better if we were all working with a better understanding of humanity.

One peice of the puzzle at a time. This thread is examining the Islamic piece.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: ByaKya So this isnt in the Koran but in fact from a biography? well then, its not part of the religion since it isnt in the koran. There are no biographies of christ in chuchs for the same reason.this book is in the fiction section of the library thanks for playing, rofl.

On the spot ByaKya...

Its a technique widely used by anti-Islamic people....

right STW?

[The_Genius]

StrongHeartsWin, you are trying very hard to make Mohammed (saw) look like a torturer on each one of your anti-Islamic topics.... But It's not really working...


1. You are completely ignoring (or may be you don't know) the fact that Mohammed (saw) was not just the leader in a spiritual level but also secular or Judicial level. Just because he was a Prophet you can not expect him to say, "Lord have mercy, you are forgiven'' to a ruthless gang of murderers.


2. You are also ignoring the extent of crime they have committed...

(a) They killed an unarmed and innocent shepherd.

(b) They drank milk from his camels but the shepherd had to pay for the milk with his own life.

(c) They drove away the camels... The Sheperd's family not only lost him but also their source of income (camels).


and you are talking about "human rights" because Mohammed (saw) punished the murderers?

Did the shepherd not have a right to live?

[StrongHeartsWin]

Sure, the shepherd had a right to live, and sure, Muhammed had the right to punish him in some fashion? But TORTURE?

Are you saying torture is an appropriate and acceptable form to punish someone and that your God and his Prophet approve of that?

[ByaKya]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Sure, the shepherd had a right to live, and sure, Muhammed had the right to punish him in some fashion? But TORTURE? Are you saying torture is an appropriate and acceptable form to punish someone and that your God and his Prophet approve of that?

the event in question didnt happen.
Unless you got video evidence?
Something written in a non-holy book has even less credibility than something written in a holy book.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: ByaKya the event in question didnt happen. Unless you got video evidence?

LOL! Oh, video is now the determinant factor for if something has happened or not.

Actually, I doubt that Allah, or Muhammed "never happended." No video of them either. Funny! Thanks for providing the reason to erase Allah and Muhammed!

We sure do have a lot of delusional Muslims now, don`t we?

[ByaKya]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin LOL! Oh, video is now the determinant factor for if something has happened or not. Actually, I doubt that Allah, or Muhammed "never happended." No video of them either. Funny! Thanks for providing the reason to erase Allah and Muhammed! We sure do have a lot of delusional Muslims now, don`t we?

gosh darn it, oh well!
if only what you quoted was in the koran instead of made up by some dude. you live and learn.

[StrongHeartsWin]

It appears Byakya wants to ignore many of the sources that corroberate the Kuran and vice versa, The Koran corroberating other sources. I can`t force that on him, so, it will be up for the undecided to decide if the sources and cross referencing I have been providing makes it more than likely that Islamic thought and beliefs are affected by those sources.

A few posts above I gave a pretty detailed description of one of Muhammed`s quite brutal torture scenes, and then with ByaKya`s protestation of it because it not being in the Koran, I elaborated with sources to support the value in the Mulsim world of those works. Notice my reference above to Ibn Sa'd's work on the early history Islam and its leaders.

Reinforcing that those early works are highly valued in the Islamic world to give more information about Muhammed and to make the Koran more clear in meaning, look at this for further corraboration on the importance of those works:

Most Muslims regard anyone who knew or saw Muhammad, believed in his teachings, and died as a Muslim to be a companion or ?ah?bi. ... Many of them were identified by later scholars, and their names and biographies were recorded in religious reference texts such as Muhammad ibn Sa'd's early Kit?b at-Tab?qat al-Kab?r.

It was important to identify the companions because later scholars accepted their testimony (the hadith, or traditions) as to the words and deeds of Muhammad, the occasions on which the Qur'an was revealed, and various important matters of Islamic history and practice (sunnah). The testimony of the companions, as it was passed down through chains of trusted narrators (isnads), was the basis of the developing Islamic tradition. Source

So, readers have to decide between ByaKya`s insistance that only things in the Koran affect the Islamic views of Muslims, or if there is a much wider of works that, too, shape the beliefs of Muslims. I have provided ample evidence to suggest the latter. Decide for yourself.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin It appears Byakya wants to ignore many of the sources that corroberate the Kuran and vice versa, The Koran corroberating other sources. I can`t force that on him, so, it will be up for the undecided to decide if the sources and cross referencing I have been providing makes it more than likely that Islamic thought and beliefs are affected by those sources. A few posts above I gave a pretty detailed description of one of Muhammed`s quite brutal torture scenes, and then with ByaKya`s protestation of it because it not being in the Koran, I elaborated with sources to support the value in the Mulsim world of those works. Notice my reference above to Ibn Sa'd's work on the early history Islam and its leaders. Reinforcing that those early works are highly valued in the Islamic world to give more information about Muhammed and to make the Koran more clear in meaning, look at this for further corraboration on the importance of those works: Most Muslims regard anyone who knew or saw Muhammad, believed in his teachings, and died as a Muslim to be a companion or ?ah?bi. ... Many of them were identified by later scholars, and their names and biographies were recorded in religious reference texts such as Muhammad ibn Sa'd's early Kit?b at-Tab?qat al-Kab?r. It was important to identify the companions because later scholars accepted their testimony (the hadith, or traditions) as to the words and deeds of Muhammad, the occasions on which the Qur'an was revealed, and various important matters of Islamic history and practice (sunnah). The testimony of the companions, as it was passed down through chains of trusted narrators (isnads), was the basis of the developing Islamic tradition. Source So, readers have to decide between ByaKya`s insistance that only things in the Koran affect the Islamic views of Muslims, or if there is a much wider of works that, too, shape the beliefs of Muslims. I have provided ample evidence to suggest the latter. Decide for yourself.

You are still quoting from some book, not the koran.
Quote from the koran and we can go from there, otherwise its a non-starter

[StrongHeartsWin]

Like I said, I know you reject it, and now it is up to the other readers to decide for themselves how they feel about it and how Islamic thought is influenced by those works in the Islamic world.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin We sure do have a lot of delusional Muslims now, don`t we?

Haha... We all can see who is confusing himself with false quotations.

...you only mention what 'seems bad to you' and leave out the good parts... Thats not the way to judge a religion.