Islam: Schizophrenia and Deception?

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: Athena When we approach this subject, what is in our hearts? Are we feeling hostile or loving? What a holy book says to us, depends very much which human emotion we are experiencing when put our thoughts to the subject. I have noticed many people are coming to these forums with a high degree of hostility, and it is really funny when they do this, and then project their own hostility into others. This is what makes wars. Project our hostility on others while holding the belief that are good people only defending ourselves from the "bad" people. Who is attacking a muslim and thinking himself to be hostile, threatening and the cause of the problem? Who is attacking and seeing himself as a good person who leads the world to peace? How is that peace achieved?

Indeed, many epistemologists agree that emotion is one of the four major ways of knowing.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Athena Do you know any Muslims? The Muslims I have known have been very reverent, respectful and gentle people.

It is irrelevant if I know any Muslims as to the validity of the assertions I made in the OP -- which is set up to frame the discussion/debate. What if I say I know 100 Muslims and they are all the opposite of your experience? It leaves us no further in the debate other than you have had your experience and I, mine. Let`s look at what we both have equal access to confirm -- which are the books and public information related to Islam.

Because I posit the question of "deception" and "schizophrania" in the OP and thread title, the fact that some may appear to be reverent, respectful, or gentle people, could be part of the topic -- particularly when the Koran seems to have conflicting messages that confuse those who turn to terrorism or violence or treat others in a way that are contradictory to respect.

Is it respectful to women to hold the belief that a man is told he may beat his wife if he suspects she has been unfaithful? I also imagine Muslims look at Muhammed reverently, but is it an attribute deserving reverence when one imparts the message that all those who do not believe as you are your enemies or to cut their heads off simply because they are unbelievers and oppose you because they wish to believe what they want?

We are examing a belief system here and what springs from that and see if the parts display a schizophrenic theme or one of deception that leads to a climate ripe for intolerance or violence, such as murder or terrorism. I think it does and I have been supplying verses to back that assertion up.

As of yet, no one has tackled the verses I put forth and dispelled those notions. I even asked some simple questions along with those posts which were meant to be answered and not put there rhetorically.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Then the Koran is not a book to look for to base one`s life and decisions on today.

No. Because Quran not only contains history but also moral codes.


Firstly, you are always stereotyping Muslims because of what extremists do. Its a cheap trick. Like I said before, I can not call Catholics "blood thirsty" just because Crusaders killed 70000 citizens of Jerusalem. You are smarter than that StrongHeart...


Secondly, you believe every single thing the media shows you. I feel you struggle to separate 'facts' from 'propagandas'. For example, if a bearded Muslim person goes past you, what would think? I guess you would think, "I must be careful, that dude looks like those terrorists on TV." You only hear what the US / UK media tells you what they think about Islam, which is far from the truth...


Thirdly, I advice you to read an unbiased biography of Prophet Mohammed (saw). After Mohammed (saw) came back to Mecca as victorious, what did he do to those who tortured him?

As those Pagans were frightened, Mohammed (saw) said, "Today, you all are free..."

You can not show me another King/Religious leader/President being so kind and merciful to their enemies.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin We are examing a belief system here and what springs from that and see if the parts display a schizophrenic theme or one of deception that leads to a climate ripe for intolerance or violence, such as murder or terrorism. I think it does and I have been supplying verses to back that assertion up.

You are welcome to continue think that way. At the end of the day, its your choice... No one really cares.

[The_Genius]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin As of yet, no one has tackled the verses I put forth and dispelled those notions. I even asked some simple questions along with those posts which were meant to be answered and not put there rhetorically.

I think I answered your questions...

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: The_Genius I think I answered your questions...

No, you didn`t. Many were not addressed specifically. Here they are again and now I have added some others:

8:5 Even as thy Lord caused thee (Muhammad) to go forth from thy home with the Truth, and lo! a party of the believers were averse (to it).

8:6 Disputing with thee of the Truth after it had been made manifest, as if they were being driven to death visible.

soon leading to:

8:12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

8:13 That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

Now, does that set a fine example for a role model to make for his followers? Allah and Muhammed don`t sound very tolerant of “non-believers” not being receptive to his ‘Message,’ now, does he?

Where is tolerance if one is not allowed to dispute or reject what one chooses to? If that is ‘tolerance,’ it sure is enough to throw fear (i.e. terrorize) into my heart. Wouldn`t that terrorize you if you were on the receiving end? (added now)

4:101 And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.

Now, are ALL disbelievers, either in that time or place or this time or place, enemies to ‘Believers?’ Why is it "truth" that all "dibelievers" are "enemies."

Why believe that ALL disbelievers are enemies or promote the idea that they are if that is not going to add to the possibility of living peacefully nearby to one another?

Doesn`t Muhammed know how to parse his words by qualifying in such a manner as to spare the innocent or help lay the groundwork of trust or promote the possibility of peace?

Enemies are the target in battle, aren`t they? What is the difference between an enemy and a combatant? Doesn`t Muhammed know? Doesn`t he know how to tell them apart and give instruction on the matter?

Didn`t the ‘Prophet’ foresee a time in the future where his ambiguity on important matters would be used to bend and warp his elastic words to mean whatever they want to someone and hence he would be referenced for the actions taken over them? What is a ‘Prophet’ if they can`t ‘foresee’ the horrible consequences of his actions in the future -- done so in the name of Allah?

Rather than elastic, doesn`t Allah know how to impart a message to make concrete words that are so concrete they are unbendable in meaning for all future generations? Why hasn`t he done so?

And I will add a few other questions:

Is this the paranoia that infects the terrorists today, that ALL disbelievers are enemies to them? If so, then why don`t you think they get that from the Koran and Muhammed when in fact Muhammed lacked the ablility to qualify his words, preferring to and speak in absolutes without giving limitations to his decrees to affect time and place for them -- not to mention discriminate between the innocents such as women, children, the old, infirmed, or anyone of no immediate physical threat? Why didn`t he foresee a need to do so?

Do leaders’ actions affect the actions of their followers?

Do leaders’ words and writings accept the actions of their followers?

Does Muhammed generalize about groups of people without discriminating between innocents caught amongst them?

Does Muhammed approve up, set up, and proscribe how torture is to be done?

Does Muhammed sanction beating women if a man merely suspects they are unfaithful?

Doesn`t not using qualifying words in instances like “non-believers” generalize? and since it is non-discriminating and therefore the good and innocent are caught up with the bad and guilty for punishment and violence, doesn`t it increase suffering rather than offer protection to the innocent?

In the eyes of Muslims, if someone supports their government through paying taxes to them, and that government is perceived by Muslims to be at war with them, do they view the tax payer as an acceptable target, since the tax payers are sending recourses to build the guns and bombs to fight them with?

[The_Genius]

StrongHeartsWin, It is very easy to live in a bubble with a television and watch FOX and CNN all day and then blame Islam for every bad things that happen in this world…


The Way StrongHeart Debates…


Lets go into details about terrorism. Did terrorism (suicide bombing for example) exist at the time of Mohammed (saw)? No. The type of terrorism that takes place these days did not happen up until the 19th century. It is true that such terrorism did arise in the Middle East. All you are doing is, quoting passages from the Quran out of context and blaming Islam for terrorism. That is the way you approach the subject of terrorism. Whenever something happens, you would say, “Islam and Quran are to blame”. How convenient?



What StrongHeart deliberately overlooks…


As I have made it clear, you go on quoting the Quran and blame Allah’s Word for the rise of terrorism. However, not even once, you have pointed out the way US and UK’s murderous foreign policies influenced terrorism.


1. Iraq war… No weapon of mass destruction was found YET thousands of children became orphans. People lost their homes and their country to US colonists. These orphans/young people do not have weapons to fight US Army. What do they do? They tend to become terrorists/insurgents. Don’t forget, emotion is a powerful thing.

2. Palestine… Everywhere in the world (not in US media though) we see pictures of Israeli tanks killing innocent Palestinian children. Again… There is no way they can fight Israel (a nuclear power) but with stones. Therefore, they also tend to become terrorists to resist Israeli oppression.

3. Lebanon… According to UN sources, Israel dropped at least one million cluster bombs in southern Lebanon. Killed thousands of Lebanese civilians…


You seem so preoccupied with winning the debate against me and blaming Islam that you ignore the main reasons for the emergence of terrorism. It is obvious you can not imagine the pain of losing your loved ones in a war. So don’t even try to understand… ‘Emotion’ is a powerful thing, which often cancels out ‘reason’. By the way, I am not justifying terrorism but merely stating the main reasons for it’s emergence.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Genius, you smugly proclaimed you had answered all my questions. You clearly did not and I went on to list the ones you didn`t, in addition to adding more.

Why haven`t you dealt with them? If you want to obfuscate by bringing in other issues, at least do so while addressing each question one by one rather than glossing them over with one huge obfuscating post.

If you are unwilling to tackle them, I surmise they leave you wondering at the answers and implications yourself.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Those who assert that Islam is a great religion and says it does not set an example for violence for its followers, take a look at a description of one of Muhammad`s cruel deeds and ask yourself if such a “Messenger” is to be followed and is worthy of promoting peace:

"A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, ‘O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk.’ Allah's Apostle said, ‘I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.’ So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra. They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died." (Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Vol 4, Bk 52, Num 261)

Relayed by Anas bin Malik, considered one of the major and trustworthy narrators of Hadith

No mercy. No quick death as punishment. A painful torture and slow death of thirst afterwards as they begged for some relief.

And the Islamic world was upset at the U.S. for Abu Grahib prison? Why is such egregious behaviour permitted for Islammists and its founder, but not U.S. military personel?

Now, is this what one says about Muhammed`s and Allah`s 'Way', "Yep. He`s my kind of guy. He has the kinds of values and morals that guide his actions that I want to match mine to. I believe what he believes and whatever he has done in his past was right. I like and agree with how he gets the job done."

Would you want your kids to hang around a known torturer who can`t even show the smallest act of mercy to those whom he has decided to cause great pain and suffering to? I wouldn`t. Why would you?

The point of my debate in the OP still stands. Such a religion brought by a man doing such atrocities is not great; its God that appoints him as its general and Messenger is not great; and the Holy Book that shows opposite characteristics of the same person is tentamount to schizophrenia and or promoting it. To blindly state otherwise or to rationalize horrendous killings of torture away is deception when someone persists that Islam is a religion of peace. It clearly is not, and the torturous deeds of its founder point that out clearly to those who do not shun away from the horrific documentations that are respected in Islamic belief showing otherwise.

[Athena]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin It is irrelevant if I know any Muslims as to the validity of the assertions I made in the OP -- which is set up to frame the discussion/debate. What if I say I know 100 Muslims and they are all the opposite of your experience? It leaves us no further in the debate other than you have had your experience and I, mine. Let`s look at what we both have equal access to confirm -- which are the books and public information related to Islam. Because I posit the question of "deception" and "schizophrania" in the OP and thread title, the fact that some may appear to be reverent, respectful, or gentle people, could be part of the topic -- particularly when the Koran seems to have conflicting messages that confuse those who turn to terrorism or violence or treat others in a way that are contradictory to respect. Is it respectful to women to hold the belief that a man is told he may beat his wife if he suspects she has been unfaithful? I also imagine Muslims look at Muhammed reverently, but is it an attribute deserving reverence when one imparts the message that all those who do not believe as you are your enemies or to cut their heads off simply because they are unbelievers and oppose you because they wish to believe what they want? We are examing a belief system here and what springs from that and see if the parts display a schizophrenic theme or one of deception that leads to a climate ripe for intolerance or violence, such as murder or terrorism. I think it does and I have been supplying verses to back that assertion up. As of yet, no one has tackled the verses I put forth and dispelled those notions. I even asked some simple questions along with those posts which were meant to be answered and not put there rhetorically.

The Christian bible tells us to stone people, and the God of Abraham is known for commanding the slaughtering of people. And for such writings causing mental dis-ease, there are plenty who laugh about being recovering Catholics. My point is these religions are basically the same, as they begin with the same stories and prophets and the holy books are written by people who pretty much shared the same world view. However, Christianity is more based on miracles and superstitious notions than the other two. So if you want to attack, you might choose to attack the whole notion of supernatural beings of good and evil, rather than just one holy book.

At the moment I consider you my enemy because we do not agree, and I expect you to continue defending your line of reasoning. I want world peace and believe this is possible when people stop attacking each other as you have attacked Muslims, and might persuade others to do. If I were a good muslim I would not argue with you. By arguing with you, I am not promoting a world of peace, but a world of conflict. I am American and addicted to arguing, even though I see the foolishness of making enemies stronger by arguing with them.

[Athena]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Those who assert that Islam is a great religion and says it does not set an example for violence for its followers, take a look at a description of one of Muhammad`s cruel deeds and ask yourself if such a “Messenger” is to be followed and is worthy of promoting peace: "A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, ‘O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk.’ Allah's Apostle said, ‘I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.’ So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra. They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died." (Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Vol 4, Bk 52, Num 261) Relayed by Anas bin Malik, considered one of the major and trustworthy narrators of Hadith No mercy. No quick death as punishment. A painful torture and slow death of thirst afterwards as they begged for some relief. And the Islamic world was upset at the U.S. for Abu Grahib prison? Why is such egregious behaviour permitted for Islammists and its founder, but not U.S. military personel? Now, is this what one says about Muhammed`s and Allah`s 'Way', "Yep. He`s my kind of guy. He has the kinds of values and morals that guide his actions that I want to match mine to. I believe what he believes and whatever he has done in his past was right. I like and agree with how he gets the job done." Would you want your kids to hang around a known torturer who can`t even show the smallest act of mercy to those whom he has decided to cause great pain and suffering to? I wouldn`t. Why would you? The point of my debate in the OP still stands. Such a religion brought by a man doing such atrocities is not great; its God that appoints him as its general and Messenger is not great; and the Holy Book that shows opposite characteristics of the same person is tentamount to schizophrenia and or promoting it. To blindly state otherwise or to rationalize horrendous killings of torture away is deception when someone persists that Islam is a religion of peace. It clearly is not, and the torturous deeds of its founder point that out clearly to those who do not shun away from the horrific documentations that are respected in Islamic belief showing otherwise.

Is it a good thing to be jealous, revengeful, fearsome, punishing? Is the God of the Torah and the Christian bible- jealous, revengeful, fearsome, punishing?

Islam has the same God, so why are you attacking one holy book rather than the shared understanding of God and Satan, angels and demons?

The recorded torture was typical of the day, and holy books freeze the past and carry it into the present. Knowledge of history changes our perspective on such writtings. Liberal education would teach us more about our history, than education for technology does, and then we come to our present with a different perspective. We would be better prepared to move towards peace rather than war.

You aren't going to change people on the other side of the world, but you might look at yourself. Are you a person promoting peace and good will, or are you promoting hostility and possibly war? What is it you want? How are you to be judged? You are the only you can change. What is your ideal of a human being?

[StrongHeartsWin]

Athena, before I answer your questions below, I have to point out to you this is a discussion and debate forum site. What does that say about the participants when they can`t address the questions that are being posited? Does it add to discussion and debate or are the participants just dodging everything that comes at them? Go up and answer some, if not all, of my questions so that I can get your view on those points, please.

Quote by: Athena Is it a good thing to be jealous, revengeful, fearsome, punishing? Is the God of the Torah and the Christian bible- jealous, revengeful, fearsome, punishing?

No, it is not -- and should be more so for a God that proclaims love and mercy and if they are all powerful they should have the discipline to exercise the opposite of all of those traits.

Yes, those other superstitions you mentioned are debased as well in the versions of god they put forth.

Islam has the same God, so why are you attacking one holy book rather than the shared understanding of God and Satan, angels and demons?

Can`t do everything at once, now, can you? Have to start somewhere, and looking at the menu of thread topics in the Religion and Philosophy category, others have been doing quite well at handling the two you have pointed out. Seems there is a lack of balance and the Koran seems to be getting off more lightly than the Bible and the Torah. But, in time I will satisfy you and get to those as well. Be patient.

The recorded torture was typical of the day, and holy books freeze the past and carry it into the present. Knowledge of history changes our perspective on such writtings.

So, Muhammed, Allah`s number 1 Apostle was a torturer, right? You are accepting that, right? And are you saying it was right to torture at certain points in man`s history? What`s your opinion on the issue? Either he was or he wasn`t, or either it was or wasn`t?

You aren't going to change people on the other side of the world, but you might look at yourself.

What makes you think a person`s writings or a debate for others to look in on can`t change a person on the other side of the world? Many are undecided or are feeling down and week with their faith at certain times. I have often changed by reading a person`s writings. I don`t think I am the only one of the 6 billion people on this planet who has done so. Why do you think it is not possible?

Are you a person promoting peace and good will, or are you promoting hostility and possibly war?

I am a person who promotes the use of common sense and reason, one who likes to see superstitions and beliefs that have caused misery to the world wiped away. Reason brings understanding. Understanding brings peace.

What is it you want?

I want you to answer the questions I have above in previous posts.

How are you to be judged?

You mean by other people as to how they will remember me as a total being when I pass away? If so, then I should be judged on whether I strived to better the parts of the world and lives I had contact with or that I was able to affect.

You are the only you can change.

The ultimate responsibility for change and the decision to make that change surely does rest with me. But, many in my life have exerted strong influence on me in the process of making those changes. I, too, have done the opposite for others. We all have a way of kind of bumping into each other and in ways rubbing off on one another.

What is your ideal of a human being?

One that is truthful, honest, non-violent, a follower of reason, and strives to make things better before they 'leave,' -- leading an example for others to follow that embodies those points in addition to encouraging others to do the same.

Looking at all those, it strikes me that Muhammed does not fit the bill.

Now, that I courtiously took the time to address your questions in detail, would do me the kindness of reciprocating my direct questions in the most recent 3 or 4 posts of mine. Thank you.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Athena So if you want to attack, ...

I prefer the phrase "prosecute" rather than attack -- like a prosecuter laying out his case for the jury and judge (our audience of readers) and the defense attorney the opposing debater. Attack seems more wild and unfocused, like a crazed cocaine adict attacking a police officer without much thought in the matter. I weigh my words and construct my paras thoroughly before I press the "post" button and in the process use reason and cite passages that support my views.

You may disagree with that, but then you should address each point rather than replying with a general whitewash by bringing in other things to blur the issue.

... you might choose to attack the whole notion of supernatural beings of good and evil, rather than just one holy book.

I might, but then I might not. I choose not to.

There are two approaches to examination. One may start with a critical analysis of all the breeds of dogs at the same time. Others may choose to start with one breed before going to the whole group of breeds. Or, a group of people may choose one breed to critique each in a large setting. I choose the one breed I wish to critique, and you can go to the forum religion category to see the different breeds the others have chosen.

At the moment I consider you my enemy because we do not agree, and I expect you to continue defending your line of reasoning.

Are you a Muslim? If so, your Book commands you to view me as an enemy because I am a 'disbeliever.' My reasoning is moot on the issue for Allah has commanded you already how to judge me.

If you are not a Muslim, then I geuss it is my reasoning you don`t like. Sorry. Don`t take it personal. It is just debate -- the purpose of the forums here at Volconvo.

I want world peace and believe this is possible when people stop attacking each other as you have attacked Muslims, and might persuade others to do.

There`s that word "attack" again.

How can you have world peace when reason is thwarted by a book respected by millions and whose main character is a torturer saying horrendous things? People believe that as Truth? I think world peace would come more quickly once it were consigned to the fiction shelves of the library with Zeus and his pantheon of Gods, or at least replaced with a more benign meme.

If I were a good muslim I would not argue with you. By arguing with you, I am not promoting a world of peace, but a world of conflict. I am American and addicted to arguing, even though I see the foolishness of making enemies stronger by arguing with them.

Oh, that almost confirms to me that you are a Muslim. Right?

If so, can you criticize Muhammed and the horrible things Allah ordered him to do? And can you do that loudly and freely in front of an Islamic community without fear for injury or chastisment or being shunned?

I am not asking if you can disagree with other Muslims on interpretations and meanings of verses in the Koran or Muhammed`s life, or Hadith. I am asking can you actually say parts are bad and say the Koran has mistakes or some other serious direct criticism of Islam. Can you? Would you? What are the consequences for those who do so? Or those who want to convert from Islam to Christianity, especially if they are in a country like Saudi Arabia?

[The_Genius]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin "A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, ‘O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk.’ Allah's Apostle said, ‘I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.’ So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra. They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died." (Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Vol 4, Bk 52, Num 261) Relayed by Anas bin Malik, considered one of the major and trustworthy narrators of Hadith

I do not have the book of Bukhari Hadith at the moment and therefore, I can not clarify it right now.

So what are you saying?

Mohammed (saw) was cruel and unjust? I feel thats what you are saying.

What are you implying?

Life of a shepherd is not important? A shepherd's murder is insignificant?

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: The_Genius So what are you saying?

That Muhammed was a torturer.

He tortured people -- and not just one. There are other accounts as well. Not just a one time thing -- "oops, I tortured someone by mistake." It was a mode of operati.

How does torture fit in with a religion of peace and mercy and its most influential leader? How can they be compatible? Is torture justified in Islam?

[The_Genius]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin That Muhammed was a torturer. He tortured people -- and not just one. There are other accounts as well. Not just a one time thing -- "oops, I tortured someone by mistake." It was a mode of operati. How does torture fit in with a religion of peace and mercy and its most influential leader? How can they be compatible? Is torture justified in Islam?

I am sorry you are one of the few in the world who feels that way.....

Many other educated non-Muslims do not.......



Professor Keith Moore, one of the world’s prominent scientists of anatomy and embryology. University of Toronto, Canada It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur’aan about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or 'Allah', because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of Allah.



The founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammed. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he? " Lamartine, Historie de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol. 11 pp. 276-2727


"If a man like Muhammed were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness." George Bernard Shaw


"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level." --Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc., 1978, p. 33.


"Muhammad was the soul of kindness, and his influence was felt and never forgotten by those around him." Diwan Chand Sharma, The Prophets of the East, Calcutta 1935, p. l 22.




If I was a non-Muslim, I would rather believe those people and their researches than yours. Nothing personal dude.

[StrongHeartsWin]

You didin`t answer my questions, or my previous ones before them.

Here again are the ones I have just asked you, Genius:

How does torture fit in with a religion of peace and mercy and its most influential leader? How can they be compatible? Is torture justified in Islam?

[The_Genius]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin You didin`t answer my questions, or my previous ones before them. Here again are the ones I have just asked you, Genius: How does torture fit in with a religion of peace and mercy and its most infl