The Quran Vs The Bible......

[Masoom]

Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?

(a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1)

(b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1).

Contradiction #2

In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel?

(a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9).

(b) One million, one hundred thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5).

Now there is 101 contradictions in the bible, i ask any Christian to please answer these. I as a Muslim believe in the Bible (injil) but i also believe it has been changed and tempered by many people and is no more a reliable source as claimed in the Quran

IslamInfo.com

[Gregory]

Quote by: Masoom Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel? (a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1) (b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1). Contradiction #2 In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel? (a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). (b) One million, one hundred thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5). Now there is 101 contradictions in the bible, i ask any Christian to please answer these. I as a Muslim believe in the Bible (injil) but i also believe it has been changed and tempered by many people and is no more a reliable source as claimed in the Quran IslamInfo.com

Very few Christians will claim that there are no contradictions in the Bible. I'm not one of those Christians who seems to think that God has ordained which books are included in the Bible and which ones aren't: I'm not going to invalidate the whole book just because of a few extremely trivial errors. That's like invalidating a math textbook because you found a few typos.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Gregory Not the version that I own-- either way, there is no prophesy fortelling the coming of a Muhammad in the books his religion seem to have claimed.

The previous response simply demonstrated you limited willingness to understand something you are criticizing, which is a common trait from the Christian worldview. Your following post reinforces this with continuing errors. I am not taling about whether you agree with the Koran, but misunderstanding and errors on understanding the Koran and Islam itself.

Yes, the Koran states that the Pentateoch is part of the Holy Books of God. Your view as to whether they are true does not detract from the fact that Koran claims to fulfill prophecy and contians prophecy for the future as does the Bible.

Reminder - As with your first post I am not stating whether I agree or not with the Bible or the Koran, I am essentially just stating the nature of the Holy Books and their beliefs which you seem to be voluntarilly ignorant of.

They belonged to God to kill at his choosing however. Perhaps Muhammad never himself killed anyone (something I am disinclined to believe), however, his system even now demands the killing of people-- not just "infidels", but his own people for misconduct.

This is an argument from opinon, the truth is more very different from a less biased perspective. Read Constantine's Sword by James Carroll, for an interesting insite into the more brutal and bloody nature of Christian history. Misconduct by believers is pretty universal for both faiths. There are examples like the history of Spain where Islam was more tolerant and compassionate toward others than witnessed by the Christian history.

The main ideas behind Christianity, however, are not legalist.

This again reflects opinion. The Bible, OT and the NT, refers to the law and its rolle in the society and Jesus perscribed laws to live by himself, such as whether divorce was permited. The truth is both documents address legalism and relationships. The Loran even teaches tolerance and gives the right of people who are not Moslems to keep their belief under Islamic rule.

what makes people believe that Christians are any more biased than atheists or others? I don't automatically assume that an atheist or agnostic is an idiot just because of his beliefs... I have been in both of those positions before myself.

But you were very quick to make a lot of statements about the Koran that lack any basis in fact or history. Yes bias and ignorance is kind of universal, but we have the option of being better informed about religion and history.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Gregory Very few Christians will claim that there are no contradictions in the Bible. I'm not one of those Christians who seems to think that God has ordained which books are included in the Bible and which ones aren't: I'm not going to invalidate the whole book just because of a few extremely trivial errors. That's like invalidating a math textbook because you found a few typos.

Polls show that more than fifty percent of Christians in the US cinsider the Bible literal and inerrant.

[nilan3000]

There is no use talking to Gregory, since the time he started posting on this thread, he has had no interest in listening to the arguments of other people, he just rants on and on about the same things which have no logical reasoning behind them, and the minute someone outdoes him in an argument he jumps to the next person and starts repeating the same arguments.

[phoenix_fire]

A habit of many people on this board, regardless of conviction.

[namguy69]

Quote by: Masoom Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel? (a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1) (b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1). Contradiction #2 In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel? (a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). (b) One million, one hundred thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5). Now there is 101 contradictions in the bible, i ask any Christian to please answer these. I as a Muslim believe in the Bible (injil) but i also believe it has been changed and tempered by many people and is no more a reliable source as claimed in the Quran IslamInfo.com

Look, for the final time, I DON'T GIVE A CHIT WHAT YOU ARE. I have my beliefs and you have yours...end of conversion, do you understand what I have written, a YES or NO will do. PERIOD.............................................................................................. .................................................................................................... .................................................................................................

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: shunyadragon Polls show that more than fifty percent of Christians in the US cinsider the Bible literal and inerrant.

*shivers* I wonder how we get such bafoons in the white house. The medieval church didn't even always believe this.

[namguy69]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary *shivers* I wonder how we get such bafoons in the white house. The medieval church didn't even always believe this.

We get ' bafoons ' in the white house because people love to believe in lies.

As for churches, doctrines, etc., I'm no longer placing and input into the subject. I'll keep my thoughts to myself.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Lies, such as those fed to them by preachers and GW.

[Gregory]

Quote by: nilan3000 There is no use talking to Gregory, since the time he started posting on this thread, he has had no interest in listening to the arguments of other people, he just rants on and on about the same things which have no logical reasoning behind them, and the minute someone outdoes him in an argument he jumps to the next person and starts repeating the same arguments.

No use wasting my time on those with closed ears.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary *shivers* I wonder how we get such bafoons in the white house. The medieval church didn't even always believe this.

True, Saint Augustine offered a much more down to earh understanding of Genesis.

[rez]

The Bible and The Quran are two books spoken by the same "god".

Although both superstitious/supernatural religions are one in the same there is still fighting among the followers. I call that a double standard.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Masoom Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel? (a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1) (b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1). Contradiction #2 In that count how many fighting men were found in Israel? (a) Eight hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9). (b) One million, one hundred thousand (1 Chronicles 21:5). Now there is 101 contradictions in the bible, i ask any Christian to please answer these. I as a Muslim believe in the Bible (injil) but i also believe it has been changed and tempered by many people and is no more a reliable source as claimed in the Quran IslamInfo.com

Contradictions and problematic beliefs concerning scripture exist in both the Bible and the Koran, because they represent ancient worldviews that are difficult to justify today.

From the Baha'i perspective Islam, Chrsitianity and Judism are the abrahamic religions of our heritage, and all through out history people have debated relgion and scripture from their own perspective without productive results, and sometimes waged war, and persecuted and killed the followers of other religions. Within the religions the feuding over scripture is no less problematic and violent as in the conflicts between the Catholics and Protestants, and the Shites and Sunni of Islam.

The resent war of terrorism that Islamic groups have waged against western countrie in the past 50 years over their support of Isreal and colonialism have brought an anti-Islamic backlash in Western nations, and increased the militant fervor of many Christians. Warring amongst cousins who disagree over scripture is often the most bloody and unreasonable.

India is involved with continuing conflicts with Pakistan and minority religious groups that have deep historical religious roots. Who is right?

Members of the Baha'i Faith has suffered greatly in recent history in Islamic countries including what may be called moderate Islamic countries like Egypt. The recent rising conflicts between the Western countries and Isreal has apparently only served to increase the persecution of the Baha'is, whom many Islamic groups label as some sort of Western religious and political subversive group as well as a heritical belief against Islam

All shout, 'We are a religion of peace!' but unfortunately all are religions, sometimes at peace and sometimes at war, but over the course of history the conflict shows no sign of ending. The roots of division rivalry and conflict run deep, and it is rooted in the actual creeds and claims of spiritual superiority that gives them their identity.

On PBS there was an interesting program recently about three women, A Jew, a Christian, and a Moslem who came together to form a club and naively felt that they could write childrens books with common stories and a healing message about the three religions. The found that it was a more daunting task than I had forseen. In their own minds they initially saw no problems working together to achieve this goal, but they soon realized that the underlying presuppositions that divided their religions that lay at the roots of their belief, also divided them, and they almost broke up in complete discord. All that came out of this was a book called I think 'The Peace Club', but this book was only able to do little more than air these differences openly, which is a beginning, but like all dialogues of this nature in the modern world, could go no further.

Eccumenism suffers a similar fate. Churches gather for dialogue and healing, but find that their difference perclude them from advancing any further. I grew up in the Roman Church in the fifties and sixties amide the hopes that eccumenism would heal the shisms in Christianity. The Vatican II gathering in Rome and many Eccumenical gatherings worldwide brought great hope to many, including myself. But when I read the fine print of the published Vatican II documents and the Eccumenical Conferences ended with more churches than they started with, I became starkely aware of the fundimental weakness in these naive hopes of healing.

If I judged any single religion, church or sect wrong, because of their differences, religious wars and feuds, I would have to judge them all false to the root. I do believe that people as groups or individuals are still responsible and need to assume responsibility for the consequences of their beliefs in the conflicts, persecution and wars over religion.

Can religions, and many divisions among them find peace and healing in the world by some sort of dialogue?

No, not if they remain faithful to the creeds that form the foundations of their institutions and beliefs. There is an inherent weakness in the foundation of each religion grounded in an ancient document. It is a contract that has a limited horizon of knowledge of the world beyond the ancient world that is its cultural foundation. The assumption of each of the three Abrahamic religions is that each seperate belief has a different contract with God that is absolutely necessary and will always divide them in the potential of conflict and bloodshed. Any plea of tolerance and dialogue can only go so far to bring an uneasy peace that lacks any true foundation in reallity. To be tolerant of differences is only necessary if you must feel these differences in reality exist, and tolerance only replresents an uneasy gray zone with intolerance and intolerance leads to conflict.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Gregory Very few Christians will claim that there are no contradictions in the Bible. I'm not one of those Christians who seems to think that God has ordained which books are included in the Bible and which ones aren't: I'm not going to invalidate the whole book just because of a few extremely trivial errors. That's like invalidating a math textbook because you found a few typos.

Those errors seem trivial only to you. A typo is different from a logical contradiction.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Not really when you consider that different people wrote every book, It's not like they believe God sat down and dictated every word to them. the author's own biases and how they percieve the message God is supposedly telling them to write down is bound to be different.

[rcne]

Members of the Baha'i Faith has suffered greatly in recent history in Islamic countries including what may be called moderate Islamic countries like Egypt.

This new faith is the closet organized religion I've found that reflects what I would consider a true faith.

Sunny are you of this faith?

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: rcne This new faith is the closet organized religion I've found that reflects what I would consider a true faith. Sunny are you of this faith?

Yes, I am a Baha'i with strong Buddhist/Taoist leanings.

[Jack]

rcne, I really like that typo, "This new faith is the closet organized religion I've found...".
The last time I heard of Baha'i was in the early 70s. I was a huge Seals and Crofts fan, and they were Baha'i.

[Osborn F Enready]

Gregory said: Jesus and Muhammad are real people.

No, they definitely "aren't" anything. Maybe they "were".

Gregory said: Their stories are SUPPOSED to be real. HP and star wars make no such claims.

Some people think Mack Bolan is real too. Reading the book you wouldn't know except the binder says "fiction". If I knew a man that actually met either one in the physical world, and I trusted that man, I might believe him.

I would accept the books may be based on some real person, but embellished heavily with a lot of dramatic license and/or misunderstanding of the physical world.

I could be wrong too, but that is an individual choice, is it not?