The Quran Vs The Bible......

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Gregory I said that "at the beginning" it was spread peacefully. Don't be so hasty in your reading next time. It is historical fact the Muhammad used the sword to spread Islam and Jesus' disciples used only words. Not everything mentioned in the Bible is archaelogically verifiable-- but as time goes on more and more things are being discovered which verify its authenticity. At one time it was not even known that the Hittites were an actual civilization. I think the important thing to point out is that there are no (or I am not aware of any) discoveries which directly contradict historical references made in the Bible.

At the beginning, so what? Later it was spread by the roman legions and then the crusader's lance. Just as brutally as Islam. The reason they were peaceful at first was because they were dominated by rome.

[nilan3000]

Quote by: Gregory So basically you're saying that because Christians were killed in gruesome ways, Christianity used violence to spread at the onset. Would you join a cult just because all of its adherents were being killed because of their beliefs?

No, I mean that the early cults did use slaughter each other and that they couldnt use violence on a grand scale, not because they didnt want to, but more because the Roman would have chopped their bollocks off.

Quote by: Gregory It's not a blatant contradiction. The Bible is full of verifiable facts-- dates of various wars and conflicts and locations. The Bible is also full of things that are unverifiable-- Jesus' claim to being God for example.

Once again the same contradiction. You say it is 'full' of verifiable facts, then you do a 180 degree turn and say its also 'full' of unverifiable facts.

Quote by: Gregory I suppose you have to trust the authenticity of the Bible in order to believe that its prophesies were fulfilled-- there are dozens of prophesies in the books of Isaiah and the minor prophets regarding the Messiah that was to come, and the Jesus of the gospels (as recorded by four separate individuals) report that these prophesies were fulfilled.

If you have to trust the bible to conclude that it is full of fulfilled prophesy, the same applies to the quran. By your logic, the quran is also filled with fulfilled prophesy.

Quote by: Gregory This is quite possibly the worst argument against the Bible I've ever heard. I will refrain from copying and pasting the definition of figurative/illustrative speech from the dictionary.

Anf why is this the worst argument again? This is an argument that you narrow minded people can never counter, so you simply dismiss it by saying it is a bad argument. If the bible is as great as you say it is, tell me how it can get just a basic fact wrong.

Quote by: Gregory A religion's number of ahderents does not qualify it as "authentic" (whatever that was supposed to mean in your statement). Neither does the existence of a "holy book". Just because there is not definitive proof that either one is true does not mean that they are equal in "authenticity". You have no proof that Greek mythology did not point toward the correct belief system, therefore it is just as "authentic" as Islam or Christianity?

I didnt say greek mythology ws authentic, you are twisting the argument because you know there is no escape. You said that the bible was full of veifiable facts, I am merely pointing out the truth that it is a flawed book and is not in any way superior to the quran as you claim.

Looking at things from a logical point of view is something prejudiced people have to work very hard to devolop, but I think you should keep trying.

[Gregory]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary At the beginning, so what? Later it was spread by the roman legions and then the crusader's lance. Just as brutally as Islam. The reason they were peaceful at first was because they were dominated by rome.

I hope for your sake you're only pretending to be this stupid

[nilan3000]

Quote by: Gregory I hope for your sake you're only pretending to be this stupid

Whereas others like you have no need to pretend.

[Gregory]

Quote by: nilan3000 No, I mean that the early cults did use slaughter each other and that they couldnt use violence on a grand scale, not because they didnt want to, but more because the Roman would have chopped their bollocks off.

Proof? As far as I know very few religions have spread using violent methods. Were the Hindus out killing non-Hindus to spread their beliefs? Did the Native Americans slaughter those who didn't believe similarly? What about Shinto crusades? Buddhism? You cannot assume that a religion will try to use violence to spread itself unless using violence to spread itself is a part of that religion's doctrine-- or the religion's originator used violence to spread his ideas.

Once again the same contradiction. You say it is 'full' of verifiable facts, then you do a 180 degree turn and say its also 'full' of unverifiable facts.

It is. It is also full of the word "and", full of the word "love", full of chapters, verses, sentences. It is full of many things. If you are too dimwitted to understand the concept that something can be full of many things that is not my problem.

If you have to trust the bible to conclude that it is full of fulfilled prophesy, the same applies to the quran. By your logic, the quran is also filled with fulfilled prophesy.

The "prophesies" made in the Koran were either simply records of the past or have not yet been fulfilled. To my knowledge there are about 20 important predictions made in the Koran-- if you would like me to I can find and dissect each one and explain why it is not an actual prediction -- I have done it before, on my own time, not to try and "prove anyone else wrong", but because I was doing some searching for myself.

Anf why is this the worst argument again? This is an argument that you narrow minded people can never counter, so you simply dismiss it by saying it is a bad argument. If the bible is as great as you say it is, tell me how it can get just a basic fact wrong.

Because the Bible speaks figuraritvely.This verse for example:

Ezekiel 23:20
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
Obviously her lover's genitals did not actually look like a donkey's genitals-- they were just very large and the Bible creates an illustration. The term "four corners of the Earth" is still used today figuratively. I'm not the one being narrowminded....

I didnt say greek mythology ws authentic, you are twisting the argument because you know there is no escape. You said that the bible was full of veifiable facts, I am merely pointing out the truth that it is a flawed book and is not in any way superior to the quran as you claim. Looking at things from a logical point of view is something prejudiced people have to work very hard to devolop, but I think you should keep trying.

What makes you think I am prejudiced anyway? Just because I have a belief system that is not the same as yours? I was not raised to believe the things that I believe now, I came to believe them after reading a lot of books and doing a lot of self evaluation. Not all Christians are Christians because they were raised that way.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Gregory I don't know much about the Koran. I do know, however, that Christianity orginally spread peacefully (early Christians were attacked rather than attacking) and Islam originally spread by the sword.

Numerous military conflict occured in the early history of Islam, but conversion was generally not forced

I know that the Koran is the testimony of one man in the time span of a few years and the Bible is the testimony of many men over the span of two thousand years.

The Koran like the NT includes the Pentateoch.

I know the Koran is filled with poetry and nice imagery and the Bible is full of verifiable facts and fulfilled prophesy.

Both contain some verified and unverified facts, fulfilled and unfulfilled prophesy, poetry and nice imagery.

I know the the writer of the Koran was a killer and the main character of the Bible was killed because of his innocence.

Ther is no record of Mohammod killing anyone. God ordered a lot of people to die in the OT including women, children and babies.

I know that the Koran calls for legalism and the Bible calls for relationships.

Both contain legalism, and defining relatioships.

Of course, there is no proof that either of them are true-- but if you make the concious decision to have faith then one book strikes me as much more attractive than the other.

True, no truth, but the choice is less obvious from a less biased perspective.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer lol.. and you say this in the Philosophy & Religion section.. We've been debating issues of faith for quite some time. We've criticized both books here.. why not compare them?

My opinion? You might as well compare Cinderella and Snow White. Both vaguely similar in character, but both the fabrications of a dreamer. There's the comparison.

[Gregory]

Quote by: shunyadragon Numerous military conflict occured in the early history of Islam, but conversion was generally not forced. The Koran like the NT includes the Pentateoch.

Not the version that I own-- either way, there is no prophesy fortelling the coming of a Muhammad in the books his religion seem to have claimed.

Both contain some verified and unverified facts, fulfilled and unfulfilled prophesy, poetry and nice imagery.

I haven't looked into unfulfilled Biblical prophesy but I'll have a look later on today.

Ther is no record of Mohammod killing anyone. God ordered a lot of people to die in the OT including women, children and babies.

They belonged to God to kill at his choosing however. Perhaps Muhammad never himself killed anyone (something I am disinclined to believe), however, his system even now demands the killing of people-- not just "infidels", but his own people for misconduct.

Both contain legalism, and defining relatioships.

The main ideas behind Christianity, however, are not legalist.

True, no truth, but the choice is less obvious from a less biased perspective.

what makes people believe that Christians are any more biased than atheists or others? I don't automatically assume that an atheist or agnostic is an idiot just because of his beliefs... I have been in both of those positions before myself.

[Athena]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary At the beginning, so what? Later it was spread by the roman legions and then the crusader's lance. Just as brutally as Islam. The reason they were peaceful at first was because they were dominated by rome.

The words "crusade" and "jihad" are virtually the same. If we compare the condifions of Europe during the crusades with the conditions of Muslim countries today, we might have a better understanding of truth. This would include comparing being a minority, wherever, humans are in the minority for any reason.

Human beings have a drive to be acknowledged and to feel significant. Some manage the failure to meet this human need with drugs or alcohol, others become crusaders or explain their actions as jihad. Volconvo has lost the best Christian examples of people attempting to meet their need to be important, by being Christian crusaders. For the same reason, I speak of democracy. Spreading knowledge of the concepts of democracy is as important to me, as spreading religion is for some folk.

Hey, I want to call attention to those who striving for peace as Gods Mercerary did here, by speaking of the shared humanness of people of different religiouns, and those who encourage fear and hatred in these discussions. who is doing right and who is doing wrong?

[nilan3000]

Quote by: Gregory As far as I know very few religions have spread using violent methods.

True. But christianiy and islam did.The concept of 'crusade' and 'jihad' is non existent in other major world religions.

Quote by: Gregory It is. It is also full of the word "and", full of the word "love", full of chapters, verses, sentences. It is full of many things. If you are too dimwitted to understand the concept that something can be full of many things that is not my problem.

Something can be full of things. I guess Im just too dimwitted to comprehend how it can be full of two completely contradicting things.

Quote by: Gregory The "prophesies" made in the Koran were either simply records of the past or have not yet been fulfilled. To my knowledge there are about 20 important predictions made in the Koran-- if you would like me to I can find and dissect each one and explain why it is not an actual prediction -- I have done it before, on my own time, not to try and "prove anyone else wrong", but because I was doing some searching for myself.

And what about the bible? You talk about the quran not having fulfilled prophesies, what about your precious bible?

Quote by: Gregory Because the Bible speaks figuraritvely.This verse for example: Ezekiel 23:20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. Obviously her lover's genitals did not actually look like a donkey's genitals-- they were just very large and the Bible creates an illustration. The term "four corners of the Earth" is still used today figuratively. I'm not the one being narrowminded....

That term "four corners of the earth" is used figuratively today, but it wasnt back then. The reason the quote even became famous was because it was in the bible. When it came out it was not used figurativey. Comparing someone's huge penis to that of a donkey is just an illusion of being large. But comparing a sphere to a square is completely different, it is an indication of the world being flat.

Quote by: Gregory What makes you think I am prejudiced anyway? Just because I have a belief system that is not the same as yours? I was not raised to believe the things that I believe now, I came to believe them after reading a lot of books and doing a lot of self evaluation. Not all Christians are Christians because they were raised that way.

What makes me think you are prejudiced? Maybe the fact that you look down on one particular religion while your own beleif has an equally bloody and dirty past.

Reading a lot of books and self evaluation? What kind of self evaluation was this? How skillfully you can diss another major religion while tactfully avoiding the fact that the bible is as full of crap as the quran?

[pikatore]

Quote by: Gregory They belonged to God to kill at his choosing however. Perhaps Muhammad never himself killed anyone (something I am disinclined to believe), however, his system even now demands the killing of people-- not just "infidels", but his own people for misconduct.

And the Crusades involved a bunch of Christians having a picnic? Witches were hung for a laugh? Your bias is so solid its not funny.

Quote by: Gregory The main ideas behind Christianity, however, are not legalist.

Says who?

Quote by: Gregory what makes people believe that Christians are any more biased than atheists or others? I don't automatically assume that an atheist or agnostic is an idiot just because of his beliefs... I have been in both of those positions before myself.

Because Christians preach, atheists reason.

[namguy69]

Quote by: The_Genius Which one is the true Word of God? I would like to participate in a debate against a knowledgable Christian user. Anybody up for it?

I'm a Christian. Now, I'm a Christian according to my beliefs which are in the KJV Bible. For other folks, to each their own.

[Osborn F Enready]

This is like comparing Harry Potter and Star Wars.

Why argue over which "story" is the best, when the impact ALL resides within a single individual choice?

Religion is a choice for the individual, and all individuals have different opinion.

Seems argumentative to me to argue which is "better", and even more funny when trying to argue "which is true" since they are both full of factual flaws, lack factual backing, and are largely mental constructs to give weaker minded individuals solace in a world that is dictated by natures brutality, and productivity of human labor.

[nilan3000]

Agreed. but I still think a Harry Potter fanboy saying Star Wars is bad is really stupid, because he is spitting at something without realising Harry Potter is just as fake.

[namguy69]

Quote by: nilan3000 Agreed. but I still think a Harry Potter fanboy saying Star Wars is bad is really stupid, because he is spitting at something without realising Harry Potter is just as fake.

I don't know anything about Star Wars or Harry Potter, they're not in my realm of interest, that's not to say they wern't good epics.

[Gregory]

And what about the bible? You talk about the quran not having fulfilled prophesies, what about your precious bible?

The coming, life, and death of jesus were predicted hundreds of years before they occurred. Even if you don't believe all the stuff in between Jesus' life and death, it is fact that Isaiah was written prior to the gospels and that Jesus was at the very least was born, lived, and died.

Because Christians preach, atheists reason.

I would challenge you to read Mere Christianity, The Case for Christ, The Case for Faith, The Screwtape Letters, and The Great Divorce and tell me that there are no reasoning Christians. It is very possible to come to the Christian conclusion after a reasoning process-- not any sort of traumatizing event or random epiphany.

What makes me think you are prejudiced? Maybe the fact that you look down on one particular religion while your own beleif has an equally bloody and dirty past.

The Christian Crusades were man's doing and were hardly even related to religion: a group of greedy men used their positions, which happened at the time to be associated with a very miscostrued form of Christianity, as a tool to manipulate an ignorant population into feeding their greed.There is nothing in the Bible about killing others in the name of Jesus. The same cannot be said about the Quran.

[nilan3000]

Dude are you for real or are you trying to play some prank on us? For a minute there you almost had me...

[Gregory]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready This is like comparing Harry Potter and Star Wars. Why argue over which "story" is the best, when the impact ALL resides within a single individual choice? Religion is a choice for the individual, and all individuals have different opinion. Seems argumentative to me to argue which is "better", and even more funny when trying to argue "which is true" since they are both full of factual flaws, lack factual backing, and are largely mental constructs to give weaker minded individuals solace in a world that is dictated by natures brutality, and productivity of human labor.

It is nothing like comparing Harry Potter and Star Wars, because Harry Potter never existed. Neither did Han Solo.

Jesus and Muhammad are real people. Their stories are SUPPOSED to be real. HP and star wars make no such claims.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Gregory It is nothing like comparing Harry Potter and Star Wars, because Harry Potter never existed. Neither did Han Solo. Jesus and Muhammad are real people. Their stories are SUPPOSED to be real. HP and star wars make no such claims.

Though I believe that Star Wars is true as much as I believe that Christianity is true.

[nilan3000]

Quote by: Gregory It is nothing like comparing Harry Potter and Star Wars, because Harry Potter never existed. Neither did Han Solo. Jesus and Muhammad are real people. Their stories are SUPPOSED to be real. HP and star wars make no such claims.

Star Wars actually does make such a claim. "A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.."