The Quran Vs The Bible......

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: The_Genius Which one is the true Word of God? I would like to participate in a debate against a knowledgable Christian user. Anybody up for it?

The Bible and the Koran reflect to cultural worldviews of the 'Word of God', in their place and time in human history. Today I believe they are out of their place and time and not relavent guides in the modern world whether they are or reflect the 'Word of God' for their place in time or not.

[Athena]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Monkeys are governed by their instincts and emotions, they do not have a consience in the human sense, so they cannot do wrong.

Humans are also governed by instincts and emotions, and over riding these isn't that easy. May of our responses are learned but operate beneath our conscious awareness. Beyond this there are a varity of mental disorders that cause abnormal behavior. I think our expectations of humans are excessive, and one of the problems of having a very unrealistic understanding of what it is to be human.

[Gods_Mercenary]

So a murderer is fine, because he was depressed or had some other "disorder"? Although the defenition of a sin is knowingly and willingly violating morality, so a person whose consience is seriously impaired isn't really neccessarily sinning.

[Jack]

Monkeys are governed by their instincts and emotions, they do not have a consience in the human sense, so they cannot do wrong.

I'm not so sure. Short of anthropomorphizing, I've seen videos where monkeys, even dogs, behave in a manner strongly suggestive of guilt, remorse and joy. There may be more to consciousness than we yet understand, emotions and feelings that may be common to many animals with more developed brains.

[Masoom]

Aswat Al-Islam.net (www.aswatalislam.net)

Audios\Videos\Lectures\Zakir Naik - Debates\Zakir Naik - Qura'n & The Bible in the light of science 1of5.rm
Audios\Videos\Lectures\Zakir Naik - Debates\Zakir Naik - Qura'n & The Bible in the light of science 2of5.rm
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Audios\Videos\Lectures\Zakir Naik - Debates\Zakir Naik - Quran And Modern Science - Conflict or Conciliation 1of5.rm
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Watch these videos and then questions.. please all of them.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Monkeys are governed by their instincts and emotions, they do not have a consience in the human sense, so they cannot do wrong.

Current research on Primate behavior has shown that various primates exhibit behavior that reflects a consience in the human sense, but in a more limited form. This includes laws and punishment in primate troops for things like hoarding and theft of food.

Humanity has the distinct problem of making righteous claims of absolute righteous and waging war over these claims. We are unique in our egistic capability and willingness to risk large scale war and possibly destroying our own world.

[nilan3000]

I know nobodys posted in this thread for a while but I have a question. Is it not true that the Quran says whoever does not accept Allah as his God cannot enter paradise?

If so, what happens to people who do not get the chance to learn about islam? Like a guy in some tribe in the Amazon for example might live his entire life not knowing who Mohammed or Allah are.

Isnt God then creating him in a place where he has no chance of learning the 'truth' and then condemning him from entering paradise?

[rez]

not to be off topic or anything but.....

It was (and is) common to think that other animals are ruled by "instinct" whereas humans lost their instincts and are ruled by "reason", and that this is why we are so much more flexibly intelligent than other animals. William James took the opposite view. He argued that human behavior is more flexibly intelligent than that of other animals because we have more instincts than they do, not fewer. We tend to be blind to the existence of these instincts, however, precisely because they work so well -- because they process information so effortlessly and automatically. They structure our thought so powerfully, he argued, that it can be difficult to imagine how things could be otherwise. As a result, we take "normal" behavior for granted. We do not realize that "normal" behavior needs to be explained at all. This "instinct blindness" makes the study of psychology difficult. To get past this problem, James suggested that we try to make the "natural seem strange":

[nilan3000]

so intelligence is an instinct then?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: nilan3000 I know nobodys posted in this thread for a while but I have a question. Is it not true that the Quran says whoever does not accept Allah as his God cannot enter paradise? If so, what happens to people who do not get the chance to learn about islam? Like a guy in some tribe in the Amazon for example might live his entire life not knowing who Mohammed or Allah are. Isnt God then creating him in a place where he has no chance of learning the 'truth' and then condemning him from entering paradise?

I believe, first of all, (correct me if I'm wrong, my studies of Islamic theology is limited) that people of the book (jews, christians,) are thought to be saved. Not only that, but, as I recall, Most people in hell will eventually get out in islam.

[Gregory]

I don't know much about the Koran.

I do know, however, that Christianity orginally spread peacefully (early Christians were attacked rather than attacking) and Islam originally spread by the sword.

I know that the Koran is the testimony of one man in the time span of a few years and the Bible is the testimony of many men over the span of two thousand years.

I know the Koran is filled with poetry and nice imagery and the Bible is full of verifiable facts and fulfilled prophesy.

I know the the writer of the Koran was a killer and the main character of the Bible was killed because of his innocence.

I know that the Koran calls for legalism and the Bible calls for relationships.

Of course, there is no proof that either of them are true-- but if you make the concious decision to have faith then one book strikes me as much more attractive than the other.

[nilan3000]

Quote by: Gregory I don't know much about the Koran. I do know, however, that Christianity orginally spread peacefully (early Christians were attacked rather than attacking) and Islam originally spread by the sword. I know that the Koran is the testimony of one man in the time span of a few years and the Bible is the testimony of many men over the span of two thousand years. I know the Koran is filled with poetry and nice imagery and the Bible is full of verifiable facts and fulfilled prophesy. I know the the writer of the Koran was a killer and the main character of the Bible was killed because of his innocence. I know that the Koran calls for legalism and the Bible calls for relationships. Of course, there is no proof that either of them are true-- but if you make the concious decision to have faith then one book strikes me as much more attractive than the other.

Want some salt with that prejudice? Since when was the bible full of veritable facts and fufilled prophesy? And christianity was spread peacefully? Over the course of 2000 years, do you know how many so called 'heathens' have perished for herecy?

Im neither for the bible nor the quran, but dont take potshots at one and make the other look pure while both vessels are dirty regardless of what your personal opinion is.

[Gregory]

Quote by: nilan3000 Want some salt with that prejudice? Since when was the bible full of veritable facts and fufilled prophesy? And christianity was spread peacefully? Over the course of 2000 years, do you know how many so called 'heathens' have perished for herecy? Im neither for the bible nor the quran, but dont take potshots at one and make the other look pure while both vessels are dirty regardless of what your personal opinion is.

I said that "at the beginning" it was spread peacefully. Don't be so hasty in your reading next time. It is historical fact the Muhammad used the sword to spread Islam and Jesus' disciples used only words.

Not everything mentioned in the Bible is archaelogically verifiable-- but as time goes on more and more things are being discovered which verify its authenticity. At one time it was not even known that the Hittites were an actual civilization. I think the important thing to point out is that there are no (or I am not aware of any) discoveries which directly contradict historical references made in the Bible.

[Masoom]

Quote by: Gregory I said that "at the beginning" it was spread peacefully. Don't be so hasty in your reading next time. It is historical fact the Muhammad used the sword to spread Islam and Jesus' disciples used only words. Not everything mentioned in the Bible is archaelogically verifiable-- but as time goes on more and more things are being discovered which verify its authenticity. At one time it was not even known that the Hittites were an actual civilization. I think the important thing to point out is that there are no (or I am not aware of any) discoveries which directly contradict historical references made in the Bible.

I posted many links on this thread, please see them. Debate between Dr Zakir Nayak and Dr William Champbell Bible and the Quran

[Masoom]

here they are..

Quote by: Masoom Aswat Al-Islam.net (www.aswatalislam.net) Audios\Videos\Lectures\Zakir Naik - Debates\Zakir Naik - Qura'n & The Bible in the light of science 1of5.rm Audios\Videos\Lectures\Zakir Naik - Debates\Zakir Naik - Qura'n & The Bible in the light of science 2of5.rm Audios\Videos\Lectures\Zakir Naik - Debates\Zakir Naik - Qura'n & The Bible in the light of science 3of5.rm Audios\Videos\Lectures\Zakir Naik - Debates\Zakir Naik - Qura'n & The Bible in the light of science 4of5.rm Audios\Videos\Lectures\Zakir Naik - Debates\Zakir Naik - Qura'n & The Bible in the light of science 5of5.rm Audios\Videos\Lectures\Zakir Naik - Debates\Zakir Naik - Quran And Modern Science - Conflict or Conciliation 1of5.rm Audios\Videos\Lectures\Zakir Naik - Debates\Zakir Naik - Quran And Modern Science - Conflict or Conciliation 2of5.rm Audios\Videos\Lectures\Zakir Naik - Debates\Zakir Naik - Quran And Modern Science - Conflict or Conciliation 3of5.rm Audios\Videos\Lectures\Zakir Naik - Debates\Zakir Naik - Quran And Modern Science - Conflict or Conciliation 4of5.rm Audios\Videos\Lectures\Zakir Naik - Debates\Zakir Naik - Quran And Modern Science - Conflict or Conciliation 5of5.rm Watch these videos and then questions.. please all of them.

[nilan3000]

Quote by: Gregory I said that "at the beginning" it was spread peacefully. Don't be so hasty in your reading next time. It is historical fact the Muhammad used the sword to spread Islam and Jesus' disciples used only words.

I wasnt hasty in reading I knew exactly what you meant. It was spread by Jesus's words? It was spread because he was butchered and crucified, how is that peaceful? And even this intial spread that you talk about was covered in blood the entire way with conflicts from different cults within christinaity and the church.

Quote by: Gregory Not everything mentioned in the Bible is archaelogically verifiable-- but as time goes on more and more things are being discovered which verify its authenticity. At one time it was not even known that the Hittites were an actual civilization. I think the important thing to point out is that there are no (or I am not aware of any) discoveries which directly contradict historical references made in the Bible.

You just said befoe this that the bible is 'full of verifiable facts'. Now in your very next post you say "not everything mentioned is archeologically verifiable". What is that if it isnt blatant contradiction?

And by the way, Im still waiting for the 'fulfilled prophesy' part.

Once again, this is not a fight in support of the quran, but you seem hoplessly prejudiced against a religion that is just as authentic as christianity.

PS: Historic references aside, does the bible not say the earth is flat?

Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)

Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)

Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)

Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)

Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

[Boetie]

The Jews, Christians and Muslim are all similar in that their god speaks and writes. This is called anthropomorphic. Anthropomorphic means the attribution of human characteristics to nonhuman beings.

The problem with speaking or writing is that it is subject to interpretation.

Who is going to do the interpretation? This gives rise to religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam because they share another common ground which is the religious authorities interpret the followers follow.

The three religions cannot claim legitimacy against those whom take a more anarchist approach to the subject. The anarchist approach goes like this: The relationship between God and oneself is a personal matter.

The personal relationship or anarchist approach will rid society of the rank and file approach that Judaism, Christianity and Islam advocates.

What about a God that doesn't speak or write? A God that just 'is'. Perhaps our problem is we made that 'is' a god where in fact that 'is' isn't a god.

[Gregory]

Quote by: nilan3000 I wasnt hasty in reading I knew exactly what you meant. It was spread by Jesus's words? It was spread because he was butchered and crucified, how is that peaceful? And even this intial spread that you talk about was covered in blood the entire way with conflicts from different cults within christinaity and the church.

So basically you're saying that because Christians were killed in gruesome ways, Christianity used violence to spread at the onset. Would you join a cult just because all of its adherents were being killed because of their beliefs?

You just said befoe this that the bible is 'full of verifiable facts'. Now in your very next post you say "not everything mentioned is archeologically verifiable". What is that if it isnt blatant contradiction?

It's not a blatant contradiction. The Bible is full of verifiable facts-- dates of various wars and conflicts and locations. The Bible is also full of things that are unverifiable-- Jesus' claim to being God for example.

And by the way, Im still waiting for the 'fulfilled prophesy' part.

I suppose you have to trust the authenticity of the Bible in order to believe that its prophesies were fulfilled-- there are dozens of prophesies in the books of Isaiah and the minor prophets regarding the Messiah that was to come, and the Jesus of the gospels (as recorded by four separate individuals) report that these prophesies were fulfilled.

Once again, this is not a fight in support of the quran, but you seem hoplessly prejudiced against a religion that is just as authentic as christianity. PS: Historic references aside, does the bible not say the earth is flat? Isaiah 11:12 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV) Revelation 7:1 1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV) Job 38:13 13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV) Jeremiah 16:19 19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV) Daniel 4:11 11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)

This is quite possibly the worst argument against the Bible I've ever heard. I will refrain from copying and pasting the definition of figurative/illustrative speech from the dictionary.

A religion's number of ahderents does not qualify it as "authentic" (whatever that was supposed to mean in your statement). Neither does the existence of a "holy book". Just because there is not definitive proof that either one is true does not mean that they are equal in "authenticity". You have no proof that Greek mythology did not point toward the correct belief system, therefore it is just as "authentic" as Islam or Christianity?

[Athena]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary So a murderer is fine, because he was depressed or had some other "disorder"? Although the defenition of a sin is knowingly and willingly violating morality, so a person whose consience is seriously impaired isn't really neccessarily sinning.

I don't think I understand your question. Or, perhaps you do not have a good understanding of mental disorders?

Is killing someone to protect a mother and children wrong? Is it better to do nothing and allow them to be harmed? I faced this dilemma and am I glad the man did not get near when my fear was high and I was holding a gun to protect my friend and her children. Had I shot him the results would have been very bad, and I would have seriously regreted my action. Even when something seems right at the moment, in hindsight we can see the consequences are both negative and positive. A person who kills is not devoid of conscience, but the situation at the moment can make something tragic seem the right thing.

Murder is never just fine, but to judge the murderer with a blank one size fits all judgement, is wrong. Our present decision to leave seriously mentally disturbed people on the streets with no safe guards, is the height of wrongfulness, in my point of view. We actually have a very cruel society in many ways. It is amazing we are doing as well as we are doing, considering our carelessness and mean judgements.

[Athena]

Quote by: Boetie The Jews, Christians and Muslim are all similar in that their god speaks and writes. This is called anthropomorphic. Anthropomorphic means the attribution of human characteristics to nonhuman beings. The problem with speaking or writing is that it is subject to interpretation. Who is going to do the interpretation? This gives rise to religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam because they share another common ground which is the religious authorities interpret the followers follow. The three religions cannot claim legitimacy against those whom take a more anarchist approach to the subject. The anarchist approach goes like this: The relationship between God and oneself is a personal matter. The personal relationship or anarchist approach will rid society of the rank and file approach that Judaism, Christianity and Islam advocates. What about a God that doesn't speak or write? A God that just 'is'. Perhaps our problem is we made that 'is' a god where in fact that 'is' isn't a god.

Finally words that make sense. I very much enjoy your explanation of a personal relationship with God. I have always felt a personal relationship with God, and at the same time find anthropomorphic God of Abraham unbelievable.

From here it matters not what any holy book says about historical events when it comes to proving or disproving the existence of such a God. The story of Troy proved to be true when someone dug in the right spot, but this doesn't prove the existence of the Greek gods. :)