What is holding humanity back?

[Zinkovich]

Since time memorial, we humans have fantasized about an idealist world where understanding and reticence is the norm rather than aggression. Where intellect, and progress, and all of those other wonderful things are the sum whole of our goals as human beings, and where life is a constant moing upward for all involved, rather than a mere moving forward in terms of time.

So, since we can imagine such things, and since most of us want such a world(judging by the success of fictional stories where such worlds are created in a simplistic fairy tale manner), why do we not direct ourselves towards it? Why is the majority of the world focused on glitz and glammer, shallowness rather than depth, rightness/apathy rather than a desire to understand?

Most of all, is there a way for us to change our/others focus for the better, or are we all just hopeless? Are we just too bloody lazy to form a wordwide attempt at community and understanding- worse yet, has it become unnatural for us to even attempt such a thing?

I'd be glad if you guys could give me your advice and point me in the right direction in general , because I feel completely bewildered and lost about this entire issue, to tell you the truth. In fact, the only thing I can reasonably suspect partially contributes to the agression and clannishness of certain segments of humanity is the limitations of resources due to the capital of certain nations(See: America) upon them at the expense of another. Other then that, something human is motivating the rest of this- what is it? Is it more complicated then greed, or ego, or any of those things merely being the culprit?

Most of all what can I, or we, or you do about this problem? That, to me, is the ultimate question.

P.S. I know the focus of my questions are all over the place, so if you want to direct the discussion to some specific aspect about how humanity in general is "holding itself back" feel free to do so.

Also, I know this topic was broad. That was intentional- sometimes it better to look at things in a broader, more generalised perspective.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Zinkovich What is holding humanity back ?

One's drive of possessing more over another.

[Zinkovich]

Quote by: Rainbow One's drive of possessing more over another.

That's my suspicion as well.

Now, what can those of us who realise it's harmful effects do about it?

[ByaKya]

We will move forward as soon as the west is either destroyed, changed, or stops bombing and or exploiting the rest of humanity, theyve done a bit less recently, but they need to stop it completely

[Blef]

There is no simple answer to your questions. There are many possible valid answers to your questions. One way I will answer now is "the state". But the state exists because some people enjoy coercing others and because some people are afraid of not being coerced, or that others won't be coerced. They fear freedom and self-determination. Then there is religion and belief in gods. Many people listen to voices that tell them to subjugate others, and kill the ones who resist. And food. Lots of people want food. And land. And trinkets. Trinkets are very important. Oh yes, and blood. We like blood. Endorphins. It is such a heady rush to squeeze the life out of someone else, or to beat them to a pulp. And domination. It makes us feel good, better than others. And don't forget luxury. We can afford it more easily if we are stingy and cruel and if we keep others from improving their lot for themselves while they are providing for us. How else could we have Walmart and manna from China? Oh, and lust, let us not forget that. We want and want and want. Things, people, gratification, a double-meat mustard whopper with cheese, and a bag of chips. And hatred. Sometimes we just hate. Who knows why? Who cares? The shrinks have it all figured out and the politicians want to pass laws to make sure we are safe from ourselves. A dram is better than a damn, you know, especially when it involves promiscuous sex and drug use.

I hope this helps.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: Blef There is no simple answer to your questions. There are many possible valid answers to your questions. One way I will answer now is "the state". But the state exists because some people enjoy coercing others and because some people are afraid of not being coerced, or that others won't be coerced. They fear freedom and self-determination. Then there is religion and belief in gods. Many people listen to voices that tell them to subjugate others, and kill the ones who resist. And food. Lots of people want food. And land. And trinkets. Trinkets are very important. Oh yes, and blood. We like blood. Endorphins. It is such a heady rush to squeeze the life out of someone else, or to beat them to a pulp. And domination. It makes us feel good, better than others. And don't forget luxury. We can afford it more easily if we are stingy and cruel and if we keep others from improving their lot for themselves while they are providing for us. How else could we have Walmart and manna from China? Oh, and lust, let us not forget that. We want and want and want. Things, people, gratification, a double-meat mustard whopper with cheese, and a bag of chips. And hatred. Sometimes we just hate. Who knows why? Who cares? The shrinks have it all figured out and the politicians want to pass laws to make sure we are safe from ourselves. A dram is better than a damn, you know, especially when it involves promiscuous sex and drug use. I hope this helps.

In a thread entitled "what is holding humanity back?" you end your post with.

"A dram is better than a damn, you know, especially when it involves promiscuous sex and drug use"

I think you may be holding humanity back = )

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Zinkovich That's my suspicion as well. Now, what can those of us who realise it's harmful effects do about it?

Are you suggesting Mankind replacement ? :-)

I believe that time will come Mankind's drive changes objectives for much human-alike. Our brain needs to undergo changes in quality, and not in quantity.
When ?
I am afraid that it is not going to materialize during this millennium.
Exception : some extreme events may speed up that process.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Zinkovich Since time memorial, we humans have fantasized about an idealist world where understanding and reticence is the norm rather than aggression. Where intellect, and progress, and all of those other wonderful things are the sum whole of our goals as human beings, and where life is a constant moing upward for all involved, rather than a mere moving forward in terms of time. So, since we can imagine such things, and since most of us want such a world(judging by the success of fictional stories where such worlds are created in a simplistic fairy tale manner), why do we not direct ourselves towards it? Why is the majority of the world focused on glitz and glammer, shallowness rather than depth, rightness/apathy rather than a desire to understand? Most of all, is there a way for us to change our/others focus for the better, or are we all just hopeless? Are we just too bloody lazy to form a wordwide attempt at community and understanding- worse yet, has it become unnatural for us to even attempt such a thing? I'd be glad if you guys could give me your advice and point me in the right direction in general , because I feel completely bewildered and lost about this entire issue, to tell you the truth. In fact, the only thing I can reasonably suspect partially contributes to the agression and clannishness of certain segments of humanity is the limitations of resources due to the capital of certain nations(See: America) upon them at the expense of another. Other then that, something human is motivating the rest of this- what is it? Is it more complicated then greed, or ego, or any of those things merely being the culprit? Most of all what can I, or we, or you do about this problem? That, to me, is the ultimate question. P.S. I know the focus of my questions are all over the place, so if you want to direct the discussion to some specific aspect about how humanity in general is "holding itself back" feel free to do so. Also, I know this topic was broad. That was intentional- sometimes it better to look at things in a broader, more generalised perspective.

Real progress is too unrealistic. We need an illusion that'll make everyone happy. The Hedonistic Imperative is where it's at.

Though.. I think what's holding humanity back from real progress.. is the notion that this life is significantly unimportant compared to an imaginary second life in the sky. If everyone would realize that this is our only life to make things better, our only planet (unless we expand) to cultivate our progression on.. then maybe we'd have a more positive attitude and stop wasting time praying to the ruler of our second life.

[Cadre]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Real progress is too unrealistic. We need an illusion that'll make everyone happy. The Hedonistic Imperative is where it's at. Though.. I think what's holding humanity back from real progress.. is the notion that this life is significantly unimportant compared to an imaginary second life in the sky. If everyone would realize that this is our only life to make things better, our only planet (unless we expand) to cultivate our progression on.. then maybe we'd have a more positive attitude and stop wasting time praying to the ruler of our second life.

That link is disturbing, I want and need to feel pain, figuratively and literally - for many reasons if you need me to explain.

As for everything else, a lot of people use the belief of a greater being and afterlife as a form of motivation to do good.

Either way,

"The world is like a ride in an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question, is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey - don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride... And we... kill those people.""

-Bill Hicks

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Cadre That link is disturbing, I want and need to feel pain, figuratively and literally - for many reasons if you need me to explain.

Any resistance or negativity you may feel towards a state without pain would diminish. :] I don't want to derail this thread.. but you're welcome to dig up by old thread on the topic. I believed it is entitled, "The Hedonistic Imperative."

[Zinkovich]

ByaKaya, I see what you are saying about the West's culpability in this- however, the West is not alone in closemindedness or violence- look at China, Korea, Vietnam and Japan, and you'll find a deep prejudice and selfishness central to the political climate in the East as well.

Lullaby

Real progress is too unrealistic. We need an illusion that'll make everyone happy. The Hedonistic Imperative is where it's at.

Thanks for the link- what an interesting goal and philosophy! However, I'd like to think we would not have to delude ourselves in order to realise true understanding- so tell me how real progress is unrealistic?

Untenable from cetain viewpoints yes, but impossible in terms of potential? I don't see it.

[Jack]

What is holding humanity back?

Humanity. We are the victims of our own devices. Nobody got us where we are except us.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Zinkovich Most of all, is there a way for us to change our/others focus for the better, or are we all just hopeless? Are we just too bloody lazy to form a wordwide attempt at community and understanding- worse yet, has it become unnatural for us to even attempt such a thing?

I don`t think it is hopeless, and I don`t think we will always be too lazy -- though we appear to be so now, and have been up until the present.

I'd be glad if you guys could give me your advice and point me in the right direction in general , because I feel completely bewildered and lost about this entire issue, to tell you the truth.

More than happy to.

In fact, the only thing I can reasonably suspect partially contributes to the agression and clannishness of certain segments of humanity is the limitations of resources due to the capital of certain nations(See: America) upon them at the expense of another.

I think that is a factor after population pressures come into certain regions -- but not the root cause.

Other then that, something human is motivating the rest of this- what is it? Is it more complicated then greed, or ego, or any of those things merely being the culprit?

I think there are 6 root causes which I list the first 4 as equally important in the issue and the last two less so:

1. failure to embrace non-prejudicial reasoning
2. religion (which would be eliminated if non-prejudicial reasoning were embraced
3. ego, which gives rise to religion and fosters prejudicial reasoning
4. the continued tradition of animal exploitation and the consumption of flesh when it is no longer necessary for survival or the lack of equal consideration of interests for beings which are able to suffer.
5. different cultures
6. different languages

1. People get angry and hold grievances when things are not abjugated fairly and are discriminated against. This fosters animosity and memories are long creating cycles of paybacks. Reason embraced by both parties in a dispute would clearly demark the one in the right and the one in the wrong. If both parties accpet reason, then they would accept the judged outcome even if were against them. Reason would dictated that. Reason would also dictate that the wrong done to the other would not arise in the first place.

2. Religion as it pertains to the proselytising ones are sources of misery and war, despite the fact they offer comfort to their adherrants, and if read closely with reason, will be seen to be contradictory in their message as they are able to be interpreted any which way one wants for one`s benefit, and for the most part are intolerant. If they are not founded on reason and are intolerant by what is seen in their holy books which their belief systems stem from, then, they, too, are intolerant of non-prejudicial reason.

3. Explained in the list.

4. Violence begets violence. If we view differences between "us" and "them" as the reason to perpetrate something on a being, then why would we not extend that reasoning to justify doing so to the differences that exist within our own species?

If we accept that in reasoning, differences are not justified to cause suffering and deprive one of their life, then contradictions would be eliminated. Look at the history of man; only after we learned to domesticate animals did we do so turn the domestication process on our own self and bring forth slavery. Animals were the blue print, and since we were successful in making them work profitably for us without them needing much thinking for their chores, then how much more profitable would it be we reasoned than to have a thinking being work for us doing more complicated chores. Man reasoned that if he could tie up a horse, hobble a creature, cage a creature, bend it to his will, then he could also do the same using many of the same tools which have been successful on animals to man himself. In order to continue doing this though, he had to mitigate his guilt by first denying reason, spirit, or the ability to suffer to animals since they were different from him, but then that reason let him look at his fellow man and not the differences between him and them and then rest it on their God`s order to do so.

Exploitation begets exploitation. Violence begets violence. Why not uproot the whole tradition of it en toto and throw it away so that the foundations are gone? Part of that would entail adopting a vegetarian diet. There is no reason not to other than "pleasure of the pallate." But, why should a pleasure be continued at the expense of suffering when that pleasure is not a necessity?

5. Different cultures lead to misunderstandings and misunderstandings lead to conflict if non-prejudicial reason is not the norm.

6. Different languages for the same reason as #5.

If languages and cultures along with races could be diluted more into one large mix, erasing many of the differences physically, culturally, and linguistically, it would lead to lesser chances of misunderstanding and conflict that may arise from those misunderstandings. Perhaps a slow internationalization of the world as barriers are dropped could affect this to some degree.

Most of all what can I, or we, or you do about this problem? That, to me, is the ultimate question.

The easiest and quickest way you could start and have an immediate impact would be with #4. Go vegetarian and stop supporting exploitation of beings which suffer.

[Zinkovich]

Quote by: Isherwood Humanity. We are the victims of our own devices. Nobody got us where we are except us.

Yes, we are victims of our motivations and actions. However, since all potentialities divergent from the direction we currently seem to be heading is imaginable, I imagine the "devices" behind our condition or lack of understanding is not a permanent one- it can be changed with a sense of awareness of our cognitive functions, prejudices, and self.

Our minds aren't too narrowed yet for things to be hopeless, obviously. All you have to do is look at human imagination, and you can see that within many there is a hidden desire to rebel against the selfishness and hopelesness of the current attitude that is the norm amongst us humans.

So, is it possible to break the "fourth wall" of imagination and make people realise that thier desire for a united, peaceful world could come true if they put in some COLLECTIVE effort? I'd like to think so- but this is just my intuition talking.

Edit: Strong, great response! I agree with most of your points but they have giving me even more questions than answers, which I'll post in a short while.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Zinkovich However, since all potentialities divergent from the direction we currently seem to be heading is imaginable, I imagine the "devices" behind our condition or lack of understanding is not a permanent one- it can be changed with a sense of awareness of our cognitive functions, prejudices, and self.

And have been heading since the moment the first man loaded up the first ancestor of the burrow with fruits from the jungle and walked to his village with his goods to sell for a cheaper price -- affecting the economy through better production at the expense of exploitation.

Civilization has been built on subjugating that which if under our subjugation would give us more power and riches over our neighbor. You are hitting on the right themes, Zinkovich, but you have to look far back to see where the "divergent" originally began and that is the point which we today must diverge away from in order to reach the lofty goals you speak of in your OP.

The road we have been traveling down has not delivered mankind(an oxymoran -- Man Kind???) to the hope of a peaceful world because he has built it up on one of subjugation for profit. As long as that foundation is kept and respected so for the hope of future gains, peace will not come amongst us.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Zinkovich Thanks for the link- what an interesting goal and philosophy! However, I'd like to think we would not have to delude ourselves in order to realise true understanding- so tell me how real progress is unrealistic? Untenable from cetain viewpoints yes, but impossible in terms of potential? I don't see it.

I think that humans, as of now, are too complex to work as one. Intelligence goes from one end of the spectrum to the other. Inclination towards superstitious beliefs and rituals goes from one end of the spectrum to the other.

If we had a world of simply like-minded individuals like yourself who wish to cultivate a rational, progressive society with the main goal being understanding of our world and how to improve on it.. then yes, not only would it be possible it would also most definitely start to take place within a short amount of time.

But, naturally, the majority of us will be prone to conflict and lie and deceit our ways to the grave making real progress a matter of placing the nut jobs in a prison and letting the reasonable people carry society on their wings.

Now.. naturally the above is an obvious problem. But I believe we can learn a lot from the Hedonistic Imperative. We may not need to abolish all suffering, but with nanotechnology and bioengineering we could create a more efficient, positive, and influential generation of rational, dedicated, and curious people who will work well together without conflict.

That in itself is another task that seems so dim.. but maybe.. maybe..

[Blef]

Quote by: ByaKya In a thread entitled "what is holding humanity back?" you end your post with. "A dram is better than a damn, you know, especially when it involves promiscuous sex and drug use" I think you may be holding humanity back = )

You may be right, especially when you consider the double-meat mustard whopper with cheese and a bag of chips as part of the evidence.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Zinkovich What is holding humanity back?

Quote by: Isherwood Humanity. We are the victims of our own devices. Nobody got us where we are [the mess we find ourself in] except us.

Well said.

[Zinkovich]

The easiest and quickest way you could start and have an immediate impact would be with #4. Go vegetarian and stop supporting exploitation of beings which suffer.

Okay, I'll respond to this quickly and succintly before asking some other questions: in your world of only vegetables, I would literally die. I am allergic to the cellulose in fruits and vegetables to the point of going into anaphylactic shock if I eat too much(a condition more common then one might think) and painless rashes if I eat the average amount for a balanced omnivorous diet(not that big of a deal). It's not as bad as Mike Erwin or other such celebrities with the condition, but it manifests itself if I eat more then, let's say, three plates of vegetables a week.

So, unfortunately, biology compels me to live off of meat and the sufferring of others- what do I do? Allow myself to starve? I realise the rationality of what you are saying, but listening to you would be a death sentence for me unless I eat only half the average amount of total food I do now.

Tell me strong, is it selfish of me to continue living, when what I need to survive will be consumed anyways? If I had your choice, I'd take it in a heartbeat- but I don't, so what do you suggest those of us who are allergic to cellulose do?

Edit: I forgot to note that I usually only have a reaction with raw fruits or vegetables. Cooked vegetables are less of a risk, but I don't like going to the emergency room 6 times in a year so I'm sort of wary of just trutsting that they are cooked enough when I eat them.

If we had a world of simply like-minded individuals like yourself who wish to cultivate a rational, progressive society with the main goal being understanding of our world and how to improve on it.. then yes, not only would it be possible it would also most definitely start to take place within a short amount of time.

Would it be worth it for me to spend my time trying to make more like-minded individuals? If there's anything worth turning into a meme, I think this is one of them.

[Blef]

Actually, except for the non-sequitur about killing and eating animals, StrongHeartsWin hit the nail on the head by identifying religion and its causes as the main culprit. Religion is the root of all evil in the world.

Now, pass me that A-1 sauce. I find it goes quite well on a double-meat mustard whopper with cheese.