What is holding humanity back?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Cadre Sorry but, without pain and suffering we would have no frame of reference as to what happiness/contentedness or pleasure would be. Unless I'm missing something else with this Hedonistic Imperative.

You can't argue with chemicals. You WOULD be happy, and happiness doesn't have to rely on shadows of pain. Suffering and happiness is not as poetic as you may think. You don't need to experience suffering to experience happiness when your genetically designed to be happy always and to be perpetually in love with everyone. You just can't argue with chemicals.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Cadre Yes, but then what's the point, because the changes are being forced. It is a wholly unnatural progression. Perhaps it's these emotions that have permitted our survival for the past few milleniums. I am a firm believer that there must always be struggle and pain in the human condition to ensure that we cherish our existence and are motivated to survive.

Hm.. I don't see it. Groups that get along work better and progress quicker than groups that argue and fight.

Now imagine human life as one big group that gets along.

Now imagine this group is genetically programming to want to succeed in societal progression and discovery.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: The_Genius The solution...... 1. Stop wars. 2. Prevent the IMF and First World Coutries from raping Africa. 3. Eradicate Racism or any type of discrimination. 4. Stop crime and corruption.

How? :]

You myswell just say..

The solution..

1. Perfect mankind

[arielmessenger]

This ought to liven the discussion.

Vegetarianism isn't holding humanity back. If vegetarianism was the human answer Neaderthals would be ruling us now. Big molars, strong arms for breaking branches like gorillas, and peaceful....and stupid.

We owe our human intelligence to our carnivore instincts because in the animal world, it is the predators who are smart. This is not to say, a vegetarian diet is not healthy, as it is, if animal protein simulators are used showing us our carnivore biological history. But as for moral behavior, well, Jesus said it best: It is not what goes into your mouth that will harm you but what comes out of your mouth.

There is truly on One Way to bring human beings into full humanity, into being truly humane beings. That is understanding the ultimate sacrifice of ego model Jesus provided the world. Only when men especially understand the ego that desires power over others must be sacrificed for love of others in order to break the otherwise dominating animal territorial conquest and control battling behavior that creates human strife at all levels of society.

[Cadre]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer You can't argue with chemicals. You WOULD be happy, and happiness doesn't have to rely on shadows of pain. Suffering and happiness is not as poetic as you may think. You don't need to experience suffering to experience happiness when your genetically designed to be happy always and to be perpetually in love with everyone. You just can't argue with chemicals.

I can argue that it would be a shadowy veil, a giant lie. It would not be humans existing in a natural state. It would not be authentic success, and I couldn't live with that.

And as I said before, I need to feel pain, and suffering, it's a part of how I place value on objects and am often motivated.

If everyone were in a constant state of ignorant chemically induced bliss, what would be the point of doing anything whatsoever, because you'd always be happy, no matter what? Progress, space exploration, none of that would be satisfied, because people would be happy with nothing. You can't guarantee that people are that driven, because man, the majority of people are lazy and don't give half the stuff we discuss in this thread, or on this board a second thought. What's to say that that the Hed.Imp. wouldn't make the situation worse.

This is why smoking excessive amounts of pot is bad, and that if everyone smoked excessive amounts of pot, nothing would ever get done.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Cadre I can argue that it would be a shadowy veil, a giant lie. It would not be humans existing in a natural state. It would not be authentic success, and I couldn't live with that.

I know it's awfully cheap of me to say this but.. you would be able to live with it and you'd be very happy about it too.

Quote by: Cadre And as I said before, I need to feel pain, and suffering, it's a part of how I place value on objects and am often motivated. If everyone were in a constant state of ignorant chemically induced bliss, what would be the point of doing anything whatsoever, because you'd always be happy, no matter what? Progress, space exploration, none of that would be satisfied, because people would be happy with nothing.

Motivation is covered in the essay. I can't find the passage I'm looking for but I have read it before. We would be even more motivated to succeed and thrive because euphoria promotes feelings of needs for exploration, discovery, improvement, and advancement. Depression often sets the mood of.. "Why bother trying?" while happiness sets the mood of.. "I want to learn and succeed." That's why those with depression often begin to suffer in school and work. Happiness and motivation go hand and hand.

Also, there isn't a maximum level of happiness that this idea is trying to reach. No suffering does not mean maximum happiness. Happiness is increased, but that doesn't mean you reach a happiness ceiling. You still feel joy in doing the things you love, and things won't just be bland and the same.

Also, why would physical progression be more important than emotional progression? Granted I believe emotional progression is key to physical progression regardless.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: arielmessenger This ought to liven the discussion. Vegetarianism isn't holding humanity back. If vegetarianism was the human answer Neaderthals would be ruling us now. Big molars, strong arms for breaking branches like gorillas, and peaceful....and stupid. We owe our human intelligence to our carnivore instincts because in the animal world, it is the predators who are smart. This is not to say, a vegetarian diet is not healthy, as it is, if animal protein simulators are used showing us our carnivore biological history. But as for moral behavior, well, Jesus said it best: It is not what goes into your mouth that will harm you but what comes out of your mouth. There is truly on One Way to bring human beings into full humanity, into being truly humane beings. That is understanding the ultimate sacrifice of ego model Jesus provided the world. Only when men especially understand the ego that desires power over others must be sacrificed for love of others in order to break the otherwise dominating animal territorial conquest and control battling behavior that creates human strife at all levels of society.

Do you have a means of doing this?

Why Jesus? There are hundreds of worthy role models that provide morals and productive standards to base our lives. Trying to force everyone to follow a religious icon can only cause conflict.

Not to mention, there is no level of any role model awareness that would make good people out of everyone.

[Cadre]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I know it's awfully cheap of me to say this but.. you would be able to live with it and you'd be very happy about it too. Motivation is covered in the essay. I can't find the passage I'm looking for but I have read it before. We would be even more motivated to succeed and thrive because euphoria promotes feelings of needs for exploration, discovery, improvement, and advancement. Depression often sets the mood of.. "Why bother trying?" while happiness sets the mood of.. "I want to learn and succeed." That's why those with depression often begin to suffer in school and work. Happiness and motivation go hand and hand. Also, there isn't a maximum level of happiness that this idea is trying to reach. No suffering does not mean maximum happiness. Happiness is increased, but that doesn't mean you reach a happiness ceiling. You still feel joy in doing the things you love, and things won't just be bland and the same. Also, why would physical progression be more important than emotional progression? Granted I believe emotional progression is key to physical progression regardless.

Say what you will. I would resist such an idea with every ounce of my nature. I would go along with it if it were forced upon me, obviously, because I would have no choice, and I would be essentially brainwashed into that passive condition of indifference, or happiness towards the affects. WhEW, run on sentences are fun!

As I have said before, pain and suffering are characteristics that I think help to define rational and logical mind. I also find the emotions highly inspiring as an artist and explorative of the human condition. We would in effect, be closing down parts of human nature, that should be explored and integrated into the psyche.

What would that do to the mind? Being happy when a family member dies? This is just one simple example but I find it highly destructive to the human moral and ego system, that has taken millenia to build.

Not only do I value them on a personal level, but what's to say that if everyone were happy it would contribute to solving the world's problems. Just because people are happy does not mean they agree with eachother or share common goals, subjectivity still exists. A person can be happy in blowing up a pub full of people, or eradicating a race of people.

I think it would only solidify polar opposites more so than the already are, and encourage people to act on intentions, that they would otherwise know to be terrible acts (perhaps not if they could learn the lessons of death, and pain and agony). Its very frightening, what changes in the human condition would take place when you remove the yin, from yang, and what downfall's would beset us as a species.

I hope you understand what I'm saying here.

[harami]

Quote: "Since time memorial, we humans have fantasized about an idealist world where understanding and reticence is the norm rather than aggression. Where intellect, and progress, and all of those other wonderful things are the sum whole of our goals as human beings, and where life is a constant moing [sic] upward for all involved."

I suspect the author uses "we" as a form of wishful inclusiveness, because my reading of history is that most people only have such thoughts while hearing fairy tails in their childhood (assuming their culture is western). Many others, including myself, have hoped for such things too beyond childhood. The evident fact to me, is that once puberty converts a person to adulthood, such dreams become secondary in almost all cultures, and to almost all people.

Another evident fact seems to be that this is a western ideal, due to the Judeo-Christian ethic, Greco-Roman philosophy and jurisprudence, and the Enlightenment. I invite those of other backgrounds to show me how their cultural heritage embraces or implies this stated ideal.

Finally, it also seems evident to me that progress along these lines comes in historical fits and starts, with centuries of stagnation an recidivism, at least in western culture. Change is like geology: it proceeds glacially and then shows discontinuities of rapid progress.

Are are impatient souls looking for perfection, and not realizing the extent to which progress has been made in the last 7000 years? If you read ancient history, you will appreciate the brutality of the ancient world and how far we have moved away from it. The very fact that we can debate this issue, in our leisure, on line, and quibble about details ("are we there yet", "I don't like this route we are taking",....) speaks volumes.

[arielmessenger]

"Why Jesus? There are hundreds of worthy role models that provide morals and productive standards to base our lives. Trying to force everyone to follow a religious icon can only cause conflict.

Not to mention, there is no level of any role model awareness that would make good people out of everyone."

Jesus gave the world its most psychologically powerful icon and role model of complete self-sacrifice. An alpha male had to do this in order to establish the precedent. Buddha came close but missed establishing the powerful icon Jesus did through the crucifixion story. Without the sacrifice model human beings continue on their merry ego-centered ways, vying for control of territories using whatever is available for weaponry in the process.

Btw, the discussion about chemically induced humanitarian hedonistic society? Isn't that the premise of Brave New World? :eek:

[Cadre]

Quote by: arielmessenger Btw, the discussion about chemically induced humanitarian hedonistic society? Isn't that the premise of Brave New World? :eek:

Yea, Aldous was a genius, and it's exactly where I drew my counter-argument from.

It's basically the right to freedom, and when you permit the state or a group of people to use a drug to control your inhibitions, and limit your emotions to satisfy the state's needs, you give up that right.

[Battig1370]

What is holding humanity back?

To much religion and not enough love.

Paul

[Gods_Mercenary]

Provide logical proof for your statement, I know your new, but you normally have to do that.

[Cadre]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Provide logical proof for your statement, I know your new, but you normally have to do that.

Quoted for emphasis guys...

[Gods_Mercenary]

I don't mean to pick on him, just guide him.

[Blef]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Why do you think that is a non-sequiter when throughout history we have viewed and degraded other people as non-humans in our treatment of them, often calling them animals, denying them the status of humans, or having what our religions bestow upon us (i.e. a soul), and not to mention turn the implements of animal exploitation onto humans to subjigate them?

Because I don't regard animals as human. I do regard humans as humans, though.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: arielmessenger "Why Jesus? There are hundreds of worthy role models that provide morals and productive standards to base our lives. Trying to force everyone to follow a religious icon can only cause conflict. Not to mention, there is no level of any role model awareness that would make good people out of everyone." Jesus gave the world its most psychologically powerful icon and role model of complete self-sacrifice. An alpha male had to do this in order to establish the precedent. Buddha came close but missed establishing the powerful icon Jesus did through the crucifixion story. Without the sacrifice model human beings continue on their merry ego-centered ways, vying for control of territories using whatever is available for weaponry in the process. Btw, the discussion about chemically induced humanitarian hedonistic society? Isn't that the premise of Brave New World? :eek:

Not everyone believes Jesus even existed. How do you expect everyone to follow a figure that we don't all agree existed?

Also, address the rest of my post. It isn't practical to want everyone to follow a religious icon when only 33% of the world's population are even Christians in the first place.

And like I said, no level of any role model awareness will make good people out of everyone.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Blef Because I don't regard animals as human.

Neither do I. But, we know that humans are animals and we both share the ability to suffer and the desire to move away from the source of pain. IN addition many of the practices perfected on animals were then turned on humans in the form of slavery and slaves were often treated as animals.

I do regard humans as humans, though.

LOL!

Of course they are! Dogs are dogs, cats are cats. Obvious declarations do not make claims of non-sequiter valid.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: arielmessenger This ought to liven the discussion. Vegetarianism isn't holding humanity back.

It sure isn`t. Flesh consumption is. That refusal to embrace vegetarianism at the moment is just one of the factors of the 6 which I listed.

If vegetarianism was the human answer Neaderthals would be ruling us now.

Neanderthals had an omniverous diet just as homo sapiens did.

We owe our human intelligence to our carnivore instincts because in the animal world, it is the predators who are smart.

LOL!

Gorillas test much higher at intelligence than wolves or lions. Some have even learned sign language. Read a short reference about Koko the gorilla at this Christian site I chose just for you about halfway down here at Christianity Today.

There is truly on One Way to bring human beings into full humanity, into being truly humane beings. That is understanding the ultimate sacrifice of ego model Jesus provided the world

No proof he existed. No proof that what is in the Bible is the Word of God. Faith is not proof. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Until then they are not valid points to submit for an argument, let alone rest an argument on.

Any primate swinging on any tree in the world at this very moment is more real than Jesus or Bible God ever was. If you want to continue on this point, I suggest we take it to the religion category and one of those threads, or create a new one. And you are more than welcome to jump into the "vegetarianism" thread as well for more detailed discussion there on that.

[Blef]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin Neither do I. But, we know that humans are animals and we both share the ability to suffer and the desire to move away from the source of pain. IN addition many of the practices perfected on animals were then turned on humans in the form of slavery and slaves were often treated as animals.

Post hoc ergo procter hoc. It's also a case of questionable cause. The fact that animals and humans are capable of suffering pain doesn't support the inference that domesticating animals to use for labor or food leads to human slavery or aggression by humans against humans.

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin LOL! Of course they are! Dogs are dogs, cats are cats. Obvious declarations do not make claims of non-sequiter valid.

It's a non-sequitur because your exposition of item number 4 in your original list of reasons offered for what is holding humanity back offers only a tenuous connection with unsupported claims to man's dealings with man and includes claims that you don't bother to cite references for, like "only after we learned to domesticate animals did we do so turn the domestication process on our own self and bring forth slavery" and "Exploitation begets exploitation. Violence begets violence.".