We are all gods.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Then we agree.

[Kamehameha34]

Then you agree that believing in the existence of my turtle universe is just as valid as believing in your Christian god?

[Gods_Mercenary]

From a scientific perspective, yes.

[Kamehameha34]

The only perspective that would validate a "no" to my question would be a subjective one, which could be countered by my own subjective view.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Exactly, you believe what you believe and i'll believe what i believe.

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 That is because both claims are unknown. You can't just pull in irrelevant facts when there is no evidence. Both my universe and your religion has an "unknown" status, objectively. More people believe in Christianity, I'm fine with that. But these people base it on where they were born, and what feels most comfortable to them.

As I was saying before, it's a matter of people when it comes to intersubjective truth. Both claims are unknown. And never before did I say that the number of people believing in a belief makes it objectively true.

Quote by: Scribbler1 You could do that, but you would just be giving different words to the same object. It is an apple.

As you wish. It's your definition.

Quote by: Kamehameha34 The only perspective that would validate a "no" to my question would be a subjective one, which could be countered by my own subjective view.

If we could know the Truth, then it's also possible to say "no" if your belief is false. However, we couldn't know it in the objective sense. Then again, we could think we know it with the approximation of our belief, but then that would be our subjective view. What's your point, though? :confused:

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Epistemologist As I was saying before, it's a matter of people when it comes to intersubjective truth. Both claims are unknown. And never before did I say that the number of people believing in a belief makes it objectively true.

So you understand that the number of people who believe it is irrelevant in regards to its validity?

If we could know the Truth, then it's also possible to say "no" if your belief is false. However, we couldn't know it in the objective sense. Then again, we could think we know it with the approximation of our belief, but then that would be our subjective view. What's your point, though? :confused:

My point is that, with the absence of evidence, the existence of a turtle universe is just as valid as your religion.

[Cadre]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 Stop trolling this BS about "intersubjective truth". Truth is objective. Subjectivity has no place in this debate. It is, essentially, "more people believe in my religion, so it is more likely to be true." The people that believe either religion do not have suitable proof to make a claim, so they are not evidence. Stop persuing it. Anything other than evidence and logic has no place in a debate.

If I were to come in and agree with you would that make you more correct preceptually? Technically?

Are you more likely to be correct about something when a majority agrees with you?

Not implying anything just trying to help refocus your discussion here because it's getting a little to personal.

[Cadre]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 Object A is an apple. How is that subjective? No one's opinion will ever influence that statement.

Dimension A, Object A is perceptually an Apple
Dimension B, Object A is perceptually an Orange.

X can be defined as an apple.
Y can be defined as Dimension A.
Z can be defined as Dimension B.

(X)(Y)=xy unique term 1
(X)(Z)=xz unique term 2

The perceptual outcome of the initial variable is altered by its compounder.

String theory, you're both right. :eek:

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Cadre If I were to come in and agree with you would that make you more correct preceptually? Technically? Are you more likely to be correct about something when a majority agrees with you? Not implying anything just trying to help refocus your discussion here because it's getting a little to personal.

Subjectivity has nothing to do with objective truths.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Cadre Dimension A, Object A is perceptually an Apple Dimension B, Object A is perceptually an Orange. X can be defined as an apple. Y can be defined as Dimension A. Z can be defined as Dimension B. (X)(Y)=xy unique term 1 (X)(Z)=xz unique term 2 The perceptual outcome of the initial variable is altered by its compounder. String theory, you're both right. :eek:

But what you believe the apple to be is still irrelevant as to what it really is.

[Cadre]

Objectivity - "Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices" (dictionary.com)

So an objective truth is by defintion conformity with fact or reality that is uninfluenced by personal motives.

Again I ask, if the majority of people believe something because they perceive it as "conformity with fact or reality" does that make it more true? Or can both results be true?


I'm just saying, an objective truth can only exist in a subjective mind. And it's often the truth of it can be interpreted in more ways than one. Just as there is no absolute right or wrong, only social conditions in which the majority defines right and wrong.

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 So you understand that the number of people who believe it is irrelevant in regards to its validity?

I've always understand it. Why do you make it seem like I never said this in all my previous posts? Still for a better analysis, you still ought to consider the intersubjective perspective. All this time, I was speaking as an unattached observer. However, I am against your turtle belief because it contradicts my belief, which I believe with unyielding faith. That belief is absolutely true for me and my culture regardless of what your quasi-reality is. Indeed, we believe that our beliefs are the Truth.

But going back to an unattached observation, I say for perhaps the hundredth time that the absolute truth of belief is actually independent of its intersubjective truth, although within each culture the believers take their beliefs as the absolute truth. It depends, I guess, on your frame of reference.

We haven't been posting anything very new on this subject, so I guess it's resolved.

Quote by: Kamehameha34 My point is that, with the absence of evidence, the existence of a turtle universe is just as valid as your religion.

In the broader frame of reference, yes, it is, but within a culture i.e. a Christian one with a specific intersubjective frame of reference, it's not. Is it clearer if I explain it like that?

[Cadre]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 But what you believe the apple to be is still irrelevant as to what it really is.

I'm not believing it to be anything, only perceiving it as how it is presented.

XY != XZ

Both multipliers are apples, but the product is different.

[Kamehameha34]

If intersubjectivity is irrelevant, why bring it up in an objective thread?

In the broader frame of reference, yes, it is, but within a culture i.e. a Christian one with a specific intersubjective frame of reference, it's not. Is it clearer if I explain it like that?

Ok, so when you look at it from a biased point of view, you will be.. biased to one frame of mind. This is not an applicable concept to the thread.

[Jack]

I don't want to be a god. Too much responsibility, too many sparrows to keep an eye on (like they're going to do anything remotely interesting), too many people asking for favors.

Nah, I'll just stay human if it's OK with everyone.

[Kamehameha34]

No, according to my faith, you are a god, and you have no choice in the matter. :eek:

[Cadre]

Quote by: Isherwood I don't want to be a god. Too much responsibility, too many sparrows to keep an eye on (like they're going to do anything remotely interesting), too many people asking for favors. Nah, I'll just stay human if it's OK with everyone.

Listen up buddy, don't presume to know what those sparrows are thinking.

They have all the freaking answers, trust me.

[Jack]

Then with my godly powers I make myself a mortal.

There!

[Kamehameha34]

You better let up, or I'll continue to redefine god so the definition always includes you