Revelations - Bad dream or prophesy?

[shunyadragon]

There has been some interest in this, ah . . . last book of the NT in the Bible. Some say it predicts the Fall of Rome, but Rome is still here as a church, more powerful than ever, some say the end of the world, but the world is still here as lively as ever. Some say myth or messing with early drugs like wine and mushrooms.What is your oppinion? :( :rolleyes: :confused:

[CJFreeman]

Mysterious book that no one can really make any codified doctrine about. Why? The events have not come to pass (at least that we know of). Hence we have little understanding at best. It does seem to me, however, that the book is stating something you have not included in your list of hermeneutics: the end of satan's "playtime," the return of Christ, the coming of the new Jerusalem, and the re-establishing of shalom (peace, concord, and unity with the Holy Trinity).

Christopher J. Freeman

[samsara15]

That guy who wrote Revalations was smoking some weird stuff.

The following is a quote from T"the New American Bible." Copyright 1970 by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, Washington DC.

"The Book of Revelation, or the Apocalypse, is the last book of theBible, and perhaps the least read. It is also one of the most difficult to understand because it abounds in unfamiliar and extravagant symbolism, which at best appears unusual to the modern reader. Symbolic language, however, is one of the chief characteristics of apocalyptic literature, of which this book is an outstanding example. Such literature enjoyed wide popularity in both Jewish and Christian circles from 200 BC to 200 AD.
This book contains an account of visions in symbolic and allegorical language borrowed in part from the Old Testament, especially Ezekiel, Zechariah, and the apocalyptic Book of Daniel. Whether these visions were real experiences of the author or simply literary conventions employed by him is an open question, the solution of which in no way adds to, or detracts from, the divine Inspiration of the book.
Symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism capable of being pictured realistically. One would find it both defficult and repulsive to visualize a lamb with seven horns and seven eyes' yet Christ our Lord is described in precisely such words (5,6). The author used these images to suggest Christ's universal power (seven horns) and knowledge (seven eyes). Another significant feature of apocalyptic writing is theuse of symbolic colors (1,13-16; 3,18; 4,4; 6, 1-8; 17, 4; 19,8) and numbers (four signifies the world' six, imperfection; seven, totality or perfection; twelve, Israel's tribes or the Apostles' thousand, immensity). Finally, the vindictive language int he book (6,9f; 18,1-19, 4) is also to be understood symbolically, and not literally. The cries for vengeance that sound so harsh on the lips of Christian martyrs are in fact literary devices the author employed to evoke in the reader and hearer a feeling of horror for apostasy and rebellion, which will be severely punished by God.
The Book of Revelation cannot be adequately comprehended except against the historical background which occasioned its writing. Like the Book of Daniel and ther apocalypses, it was composed as resistance literature to meet a crisis. The book itself suggests that the crisis was ruthless persecution of the early church by the Roman authoriities' the harlot Babylon symbolizes pagan Rome, the city on seven hills (17,9). The book is, then, an exhortation and admonition to the Christian to stand firm in the faith and to avoid compromise with paganism, despite the threat of adversity and martyrdom; he is to await patiently the fulfillment of God's mighty promises. The triumph of God in the world of men remains a mystery, to be accepted in faith and longed for in hope. It is a triumph that unfolded in the history of Jesus of Nazareth, and countinues to unfold in the history of the individual Christian who follows the way of the cross, even, if necessary, to a martyr's death.
Though the perspective is eschatological - ultimate salvation and victory are said to take place at the end of the present age when Christ will come in glory at the parousia - the book presents the decisive struggle of Christ and his followers against Satan and his cohorts as already over. Christ's overwhelming defeat of the kingdom of SAtan has ushered in the everlasting reign of God (11, 15; 12, 10). Even the forces of evil unwittingly carry out the divine plan (17, 17), for God is the sovereign Lord of history.
The Book of Revelation had its origin in a time of crisis, but it remains valid for Christians of all time. In the fac of evils from within and without, the Christian can confidently trust in God's promise to be with the church forever.
The author of the book calls himself John (1,1. 4. 9; 22,8), who because of his Christian faith had been exiled to the rocky island of Patmos. Although he never claims to be the apostle of the same name, many of the early church Fathers so identified him. This identification is not altogether certain. Vocabulary, grammar, and style make it doubtful that the book could have been put into its present form by the person(s) responsible for the fourth gospel. Noevertheless, there are definite linguistic and theological affinities betweent eh books. THe tone of the letters to the seven churches (1, 4 - 3, 22) is indicative of the great authority the author enjoyed over the Christian communities in Asia. It is quite likely, therefore, that he was at least a disciple of the apostle John, who also lived in that part of the world. The date of composition is probably near the end of the reign of Domitian (81-96 AD.), a fierce persecutor of the Christians."

You see, the book exemplifies a writtng STYLE of the times and not a forecast of events to come.

[CJFreeman]

The fact that John wrote in a style befitting Jewish literature of times past in no way detracts from the fact that it forecasts certain events. If I were to write like Shakespeare, would that preclude the message of my text?

Try not to let chronological snobbery inform your answer.

Christopher J. Freeman

Actually it DOES detract from the notion that it forecasts certain events.

Chronological snobbery.
That's a good one.
Don't let the facts or history get in the way of your beliefs. Is that what you really mean?

if you examine the passage in revelations referring to the opening of the 6th seal, it is a surprisingly articulate account of nuclear war from a man in antiquity.

'stars' fall from the sky, the sky rolls up like a scroll, a third of the sun moon and stars are blotted out, the moon glows red, the kings of the earth hide in the crags of the mountains.

where would you hide if a nuclear bomb exploded? in a mountain would be a fairly safe bet. fire from thermonuclear explosions would cover a large portion of earth, and the moon would likely reflect that red glowing light. the smoke would, like mt st helens, dim the sun even in daytime. a mushroom cloud looks remarkably like a scroll 'rolling up'. an ICBM coming down from its satellite orbit would likely glow like the space shuttle.

interesting that this was conceived of at about 90AD.

[CJFreeman]

Originally posted by dave654, Actually it DOES detract from the notion that it forecasts certain events.

What? Did you think re-stating your unsupported assertion would somehow convince me?

Dave: Actually, it DOES.
Chris: Style does not preclude meaning.
Dave: Actually, it DOES.
Chris: Oh, I see. Sorry I didn't understand before, Dave. *roll of the eyes*

Don't let the facts or history get in the way of your beliefs. Is that what you really mean?

Why don't you tell me what I really mean. It seems that you understand better than I do.

CJF

yes, what crack are you smoking? do you expect john from 90AD asia minor to write in middle english?

Middle English is a language. Writing using Symbolism or Allegory is a STYLE. As illustrated by my first post in this thread, the writting style used in the Book of Revelations was around for approx. 400 years. Serious Biblical Scholars such as Stephen J. Hartdegen, O.F.M., S.S.l., Christian P. Ceroke, O. Carm., S.T.D. and Patrick Cardinal O'Boyle, D.D., who worked on this Bible, understand what the symbolism means. Following are a few examples.
1, 14-16: The hair of his head was as white as snow-white wool and his eyes blazed like fire. His feet gleamed like polished brass refined in a furnace and his voice sounded like a roar of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars. A sharp, two-edged sword cam out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. Now the description above has symbolic language that contemporary readers would have understood.
1, 14: Hair...white as snow-white wool: KChrist is eternal. His eyes blazed like fire" Christ is omniscient"
1, 15: His feet...furnace" Christ is immutable" His voice...waters" Christ speaks with divine authority.
1, 16: A sharp two-edged sword" the word of God which will destroy unrepentant sinners. His face...brightest: the divine majesty of Christ.
13, 1-2: Then I saw a wild beast come out of the sea with ten horns and sevenheads; on its horns were ten diadems and on its heads blaspemous names. The beast I saw was like a leopard, but it had paws like a bear and the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave it his own power and throne, together with great authority. This wild best, combining features of the four beasts in Daniel 7, 2-28, symbolizes the Roman empire; the seven heads represent the emperors.
The author was not trying to describe future events but current events. The message is one of Christ's coming to overthrow pagan nations and evil, not future nuclear holocosts.

[floridian]

People have been misinterpreting the Book of Revelations since it was written. Crusaders read 'Saladin' where it said Antichrist. If there is valuable information in Revelations, it is well hidden from the average person. The book is an all purpose roscharch test - let your self go and you can see how that cloud kinda looks like a sports car, and that one is the outline of Africa. The beast with 7 horns is the G7 group of nations... oops, now the G& is the G8. Seven horns must refer to that guy with 7 moles that are raised up on his head, or to ....

Cheap prophecy is like cheap numerolgy. Connect the dots any way you like. Find superficial similiarities (isn't it amazing?!?!) and gloss over inconsistencies.

The anti-christ appeared on March 6, 2000. Really!
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1260.cfm

[Bernardo]

Understanding Revelation is all about understanding the Context it was written in.

It was written by a Jew who was very familiar with the Old Testament. Readin Revelation through the lense of the OT, reveals that Revelation is about judgement on the people of the Old Covenant (ethnic Jews) and the ushering in of the New Covenent (the church which includes ethnic Jews who are Christians and Gentiles who are Christians).

[Mr.Vicchio]

Whats funny is, Revalations IS comming to pass...

Isreal exsists...
The loss of faith.. the fake faith... the fake Jesus's...

then there is the bit about the anti-Christ and bringing countries together to form a super country.. (EU anyone?)

Its all very interesting, and yes, the description of Judgement day surely reads like a full out nuclear exchange.

[Ross]

Vicchio, do you even read the replies before posting?

Floridian said it nicely:

Cheap prophecy is like cheap numerolgy. Connect the dots any way you like. Find superficial similiarities (isn't it amazing?!?!) and gloss over inconsistencies.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Ross, what was your point here? I kinda don't really catch your drift? are you saying my view is wrong because floridian posted that little glib line?

Was that your point? Shoudl have read that and stopped not posted cause well.. that says it all?


Loss of faith, you prove Revelations correct, and the faithful shall be persecuted.

[shunyadragon]

Originally posted by Bernardo, Understanding Revelation is all about understanding the Context it was written in. It was written by a Jew who was very familiar with the Old Testament. Readin Revelation through the lense of the OT, reveals that Revelation is about judgement on the people of the Old Covenant (ethnic Jews) and the ushering in of the New Covenent (the church which includes ethnic Jews who are Christians and Gentiles who are Christians).

There are some interesting different interpretations of Revelations and other prophecies in the Bible.

The 'preterist' believes all prophecy was fulfilled by 70 AD. This puts heavy emphasis on the prophecies referring to events in Rome.

I believe that there is layered meaning in the prophecies where the same prophecy or series of prophecies may refer to different events through out history.

[PatrickHenry]

Originally posted by Mr.Vicchio, Whats funny is, Revalations IS comming to pass... Isreal exsists... The loss of faith.. the fake faith... the fake Jesus's... then there is the bit about the anti-Christ and bringing countries together to form a super country.. (EU anyone?) Its all very interesting, and yes, the description of Judgement day surely reads like a full out nuclear exchange.

Mr.V, even though you and I usually disagree, on this issue we find a (semi)resolution. My read on the events at the end of the age is unlike the Left Behind series, but I do see the globalization phenomenon as leading us into a single world government that will define tyranny. We are well on our way.