Truth

[RebelWithanAK]

This is true, but at the same time you cannot deny a servicable truth. Not everything is in flux. We've used our imperfect tools to create tools with a greater clarity for perfection, and used those as the same. I don't care if blue turns out in 30 years to be the new "black," right now it's blue and you can't deny that.

[Section 8]

It depends on your definition of truth. I was thinking of it as a cold hard fact that is 100% correct. If it is correct at one moment and incorrect at another, than it's not truth.

[RebelWithanAK]

Section 8, we both know that divine knowledge is impossible, because there is no divine. We can close the distance to perfection, but never attain it because the tools we use are still imperfect. Blue shall remain blue for a long while, since nobody can see anything particularly wrong with our current ideas on physics for the foreseeable future - they are holding up quite fine - and ebbing the works for an unattainable understanding is a sociologial problem, not a physical one.

[Section 8]

I agree with you, well stated. See we were arguing over something we agreed on. In an unrelated topic I have 64 posts today. That's disturbing.

[Down]

Originally posted by Section 8@10-09-2003 07:54 PM Down said: Is there absolute truth? Yes. Will we ever find it? Maybe, not likely. If we do find it, will we know it is the truth? No. Section 8 said: Me, I know a little definently not an expert. I do know that nothing can be perfect or completely true. Down please tell me how do you know something is truth if you don't know what it is?

I did not say that I would know something is truth if I didnt know what it is. I said I will never know if something is truth at all, even if we know what the 'thing' is, there is no way you could know if it were truth. Truth is unachieveable, even though I do believe it exists, I also believe it will never be found.

[Section 8]

Same here basically

[RebelWithanAK]

But you should never let that stop you from affirming the fact that you are, in fact, human and that people do, in fact, die.

[Down]

This may sound completely unreasonable, but hopefully it has some degree of truth behind it.

Just because something has not yet happened (a person does not die, for example) does not mean it never will happen. Even though the numbers are STRONGLY in the favor that everyone will die eventually, that does not make it a fact. The only way it would be a fact is if the number of people who have existed in the past and present was infinite, which is impossible. With every new birth, the probability of someone living forever goes down, but it will never become an impossibility. I know, someone living forever probably sounds completely obsured, and in reality it is, becasue the probability of it happening is so low, that it probably will not happen, but the possibility is always there.

[RebelWithanAK]

You're playing with numbers without realising the relationship they have to the real world. People don't die because of statistics; people die because of a host of problems, and if they don't die from the very multifarious ways of achieving a pre-mature death, cancer gets them. Hell, medical evidence tends to indicate beyond the shadow of a doubt that humans are simply programmed to die. Lengthening the extent of our lives through the usage of antibiotics, herbs, and exercise does not change the fact that after a while, our cells simply stop replacing themselves.

[Down]

Im not saying that people die from statistics. Yes, i know that people die from all those problems, but what I am saying is that just because it hasnt happened, doesnt mean it will not happen. Say, for example there have been 50 billion humans who have lived. Statistically, the next person to be born has a 1 in 50 billion chance of living forever. The next has a 1 in 50 billion and 1 chance. Now, the real possibility of that happening are probably much less, because of other factors, but it is always a possibility, just as anything else is. What I am saying is simple statistics. in pre-calc, you learn that a curve can approach a line indefinitely, but it will never actually 'reach' the line, there is always some small margin for discrepancy. It is the same idea, just applied to a different context.

[Section 8]

I'm gonna agree with down on this one. It was what I was trying to say.

[Fallen Angel]

The Truth is we are born and we will die, all the lies are what we tell in between.

[Section 8]

Once again, the we die statement isn't completely true. See some of Downs posts or my first post on this topic for clarification.

[RebelWithanAK]

Originally posted by Down@10-10-2003 01:26 AM Im not saying that people die from statistics. Yes, i know that people die from all those problems, but what I am saying is that just because it hasnt happened, doesnt mean it will not happen. Say, for example there have been 50 billion humans who have lived. Statistically, the next person to be born has a 1 in 50 billion chance of living forever. The next has a 1 in 50 billion and 1 chance. Now, the real possibility of that happening are probably much less, because of other factors, but it is always a possibility, just as anything else is. What I am saying is simple statistics. in pre-calc, you learn that a curve can approach a line indefinitely, but it will never actually 'reach' the line, there is always some small margin for discepancy. It is the same idea, just applied to a different context.

You still don't realize that using probability in this form is embarking on a logical fallacy. We don't gamble on whether or not we live forever, because it's biologically impossible. I have absolutely nil chance of surviving, NOT because it's a statistical improbability, but because I'm simply not wired to live forever.

If 50 billion humans died before and I'm the 50 billionth and first... no, no, no, no, no. That's a logical fallacy. It's not like the first person had a one in two chance of living. The first person had NO chance of living forever, the second person had NO chance of living forever, and so on and so forth.

[Down]

Yes, I agree that someone living forever is nearly logically impossible. I know that humans are wired to die and all that, this argument would be better applied to a different context, but I am just saying that you need to realize that it will always be possible. Everything will always be possible. Now, I highly doubt it will EVER happen, and it probably wont, but that does not mean it is impossible. Saying that anything is impossible is a denial of science and math. Saying that anything is impossible is no different than predicting the future.

[RebelWithanAK]

No, not "nearly logically impossible," it is, without the slightest inkling of a doubt, one hundred percent, biologically impossible. I have NO chance. I don't have a one in a million chance, I don't even have a chance that is >0. No, I have NO chance. It's not a statistically inconsiderable chance. It simply does. not. exist.

[Down]

Now you are being illogical. But its useless to try and argue the point since you seem to have no understanding of basic mathematical principles. There will ALWAYS be a change of ANYTHING happening. It does not matter what. Yes, that change is infinitely small for most things, but the chance is there. Im done with this argument. I just keep repeating myself trying to make it easy for you to understand, with no avail.

[RebelWithanAK]

"Basic mathematical principles." Ooh, you really are funny. What about medical science? Biology? Chemistry? Are these foreign concepts to you? What part of "people don't die from statistics" don't you understand?

[Down]

Ok, one last time. Yes, people do always die. But will people always die? I dont know. I cannot predict the future. You cannot say yes to that question, because that completely disregards the possibility of it ever happening at all.

[Section 8]

See my first post on this subject.