The revelancy of religious beliefs

[Plasma Snake[D]]

This goes to anyone out there brave enough to defend their religion using logical terms: How come religious people mourn their dead if they know the deceased are going to an eternal resting place?

[Jack]

Well, many of us atheists mourn our dead even though we know that the deceased has simply experienced something that will happen to everyone of us, the one absolute common reality we share with all living things on the planet. We know there was no other possible outcome to their life. Yet we mourn out of selfishness, loss of the familiar, the final separation of us from the deceased.

[Amethiste]

People are inherently selfish creatures. It's just part of our nature. When something is taken from us, we want it back. I believe that when my loved ones die, they're going to go to a better place. That won't stop me from missing them and mourning their deaths.

It's out of respect, for one. How would you feel if you knew that instead of being sad that you were no longer in the world, people celebrated? Regardless of whether or not it's because people believe you're going somewhere better or not, it would still sting a bit, wouldn't it?

[Plasma Snake[D]]

Or perhaps out of fear? Fear of knowing that one day this will happen to us as well? I dont think everyone does it out of selfishness. I think everyone knows deep in their hearts that death is the final destination for our corporal selves. But why even worry about them if they are going to heaven?

[Amethiste]

I'm not afraid of death, to be honest. It's going to happen eventually. I just want to go out in style (aka preferably not in my sleep or in a hospital).

Fortunately, the only people that have died recently in my family have been people that I barely knew, so I didn't feel much other than the "Oh, that's too bad" sentiment you get whenever you hear about other people dying.

I don't think it's worry. It's missing someone. Sure, you'll see them again, but if your mom dies when you're forty, you still probably have at least another forty years to go before you do. It's a long time.

[The Bacon Guy]

I don't think you have to be a theist to be selfish about death. A rational atheist doesn't see death as a bad thing; he sees it as an eternal rest and an end to suffering. I don't fear my own mortality in the slightest.

However, atheists, like anyone else, mourn the death of their loved ones because they miss having them around. Simple as that.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

You aren't afraid of death? Yeah, sure. Fear is a natural thing that works in our favor, compelling us to do whatever we can to stay alive.

[Amethiste]

If you don't believe me, that's your deal, I suppose.

But it's true. I'm afraid of dying a very slow and painful death, yeah, but who wouldn't be? What I'm not afraid of is what comes after.

"To the well organized mind, death is but the next great adventure." I believe that.

[Gods_Mercenary]

All animals have a natural aversion to death, and, the more intelligent ones dislike things that are associated with death. As humans, we realize that we're going to die someday, but if someone put a gun to your head you'd be afraid, i guarantee it.

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: Plasma Snake[D] This goes to anyone out there brave enough to defend their religion using logical terms: How come religious people mourn their dead if they know the deceased are going to an eternal resting place?

Don't belittle fideism with the so-called bravery of logic.

Anyway, mourning is a natural thing that happens because when you lose something/someone you've had a deep emotional attachment to, it's only human to feel sad about it.

Religious mourning rituals, then, are simply an accommodation for a natural process regardless of what the beliefs on the afterlife are. This applies even if these beliefs are fixed by unyielding faith.

[The Architect]

@Amethiste
I think we share the same beliefs, I am fightened of dying a slow death, painful death, or knowing that I cant die. So the dying process is unnerving but the after life( if there is one) facinates me, what is it, whats going to happen. Maybe there is a heaven, maybe not, maybe we just cease to exsist.

but if someone put a gun to your head you'd be afraid, i guarantee it.

Youre right, I would be but if that person shot me ( guessing that it is critical hit and im dead) i wouldnt be scared. I would be scared to end my life that ( someone else ending it for me a.k.a - Murder)

[Plasma Snake[D]]

Quote by: Epistemologist Don't belittle fideism with the so-called bravery of logic. Anyway, mourning is a natural thing that happens because when you lose something/someone you've had a deep emotional attachment to, it's only human to feel sad about it. Religious mourning rituals, then, are simply an accommodation for a natural process regardless of what the beliefs on the afterlife are. This applies even if these beliefs are fixed by unyielding faith.

What it tells me is that mourning for the dead was around for longer than the belief in religion.

[Cadre]

I don't see how you can correlate mourning the departure of a friend or family member (whether they go to hell or heaven), with religious faith and god-like beings.

One does not follow the other.

Either way, they no longer exist with us, only memories and shared experiences remain. This is precisely what saddens us when a death occurs, the thought that we will never share in new experiences with the person who's presence, input, etc.. we valued.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

Exactly. Which is why I think it's silly for someone to think that the dead are going to a better place and still be sad. Maybe mourning was here first, and then religion came afterward because we needed something to comfort our minds.

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: Plasma Snake[D] What it tells me is that mourning for the dead was around for longer than the belief in religion.

Perhaps that's true in the anthropological sense, but it doesn't give any insight on the truth of those religions. Then again, there's still the possibility that they happened at the same time. What gives you the idea that only that situation must occur based on what you've seen?

[Kuroko]

I can acknowledge death but I cannot mourn it because death is not the end?

I must commend you on such an obvious attempt to stir the reflex of those desperate to disprove you by citing blindly that while they know thier loved ones have moved on and still exist they still feel sorrow.

Allow me to ruffle your feathers a little.. How many children cry on thier first day of school? Enough, I can assure you, do not cite to me numbers of personal fammily members whome didn't cry

Majority of children have not known life without thier mother or father, even if they did there still remains a level of uncertainty during that moment, it is unnatural to be without them both for any period (at that age).
This is NOT the same as death, this is an example of uncertainty, fear perhaps? You may be attempting to argue that people mourn out of fear..
That arguement would be speculation at best.

I would like to think that people mourne because of the time they felt they spent unwisely with regards to the person who has passed away and also out of a certain level of selfishness.

Indeed. I would expect an Atheist to have more reason to mourne then a christian which is where I believe you are headed with this am I wrong?
If so it would explain where you were attempting to lead this conversation into, it would also explain your next main arguementative point, which would be to lead the arguement towards if theists believe in god then they have no real reason to mourn as thier loved ones haven't truelly died any way.

From there in some form or manner you were trying to imply that because they do mourne they don't really believe in god themselves, using the fact they mourne as evidence.

However the act of mourning can be for any number of reasons, I would think a drastic change in one's life would be an example of such, and some one close to you dying is as drastic as they can get.

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: Kuroko However the act of mourning can be for any number of reasons, I would think a drastic change in one's life would be an example of such, and some one close to you dying is as drastic as they can get.

Yes, although one's religious beliefs are an inherent fiber of his/her being, sometimes his/her tenacity is not as great as it should be. Even if it was, sometimes beliefs allow leeway for us to mourn an obvious loss. If the person's not with us anymore in the physical sense, then of course you'd feel sad regardless of your thoughts on the afterlife. Perhaps your question is somewhat inhumane, Plasma Snake.

[Kuroko]

I would mourne any death close to me. Becuase there then exists a part of my life which I am familiar with having that I know I did not use to my full advantage (with regards to time that is).

[Cadre]

And what does it matter how long people have been dying for previous to religious belief? Right and wrong have arguably existed in every individual's moral concious for as long as we know. Perhaps it just took a greater amount of time for human beings to comprehend and articulate their ideas of faith.

On the other side of the coin though, as selfish beings, it is quite possible that the ideas of heaven and hell arose out of the need for a way to cope with the dead. To believe that there was a purpose to an otherwise pointless existence, and to be satisfied in knowing that a close friend/family member that has passed is know in a better place.

Empirically, quantitatively and through logic, no one argument can be proved over the other.

Which is why I believe we are asking the wrong questions, and should stop these debates.

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: Cadre Empirically, quantitatively and through logic, no one argument can be proved over the other. Which is why I believe we are asking the wrong questions, and should stop these debates.

Although some of your reasons are questionable, I give you kudos for this point. Yes, these debates are rather futile, and to try and make a point attacking another's beliefs is awfully wrong, in my opinion. Nonetheless, it's nice to discuss all these issues in a friendly manner.