The revelancy of religious beliefs

[Jack]

Debates are a way for those with opposing views to present their best case for their point-of-view. It's not necessarily a contest with winners and losers. You may reach a point where both arguments have been presented and there's little more of substance to add. Both points-of-view could well be considered equally valid/invalid, but it's interesting to see the supporting evidence presented anyway. A debate is a forum for the exchange of ideas. I would hope no one here really expects to change minds or win converts.

[Cadre]

Quote by: Epistemologist Although some of your reasons are questionable, I give you kudos for this point. Yes, these debates are rather futile, and to try and make a point attacking another's beliefs is awfully wrong, in my opinion. Nonetheless, it's nice to discuss all these issues in a friendly manner.

Yes, it's a nice discussion, and I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss these ideas whatsoever, anything is open for debate. But these are old, OLD, concepts and I think it's time for us to collectively begin embracing and questioning new ideas about faith and existence in the universe, using a culmination of the past 2000 years of learning.

[Jack]

I'm even more interested in the role of religion in today's societies without "using a culmination of the past 2000 years of learning". To me the frustration is using 2000 year old standards to govern our 21st century world.

[Cadre]

Quote by: Isherwood Debates are a way for those with opposing views to present their best case for their point-of-view. It's not necessarily a contest with winners and losers. You may reach a point where both arguments have been presented and there's little more of substance to add. Both points-of-view could well be considered equally valid/invalid, but it's interesting to see the supporting evidence presented anyway. A debate is a forum for the exchange of ideas. I would hope no one here really expects to change minds or win converts.

If you truly know how to debate, and are experienced and well-informed, your logic will overcome the other person without a shadow of a doubt. They will resist it at first, as they attempt to shelter their own ego, until eventually excepting it as truth.

It may not seem so, but these places do change people's opinions, occasionally quite drastically.

And as I said before, these discussions are fine, but they've been going on for centuries. Every logical argument for and against has existed and been put forth. Every illogical argument has been explored and drained. All supporting and faith based evidence is on the table.

Still there's no answer clear. That's usually an indicator in other fields that we are approaching this the wrong way. So I mean there is nothing wrong with the discussion, as it is stimulating and healthy debate however, I just think collectively as a people, and on this forum all need to begin discussing different ideas of faith/existence in the universe. Modern concepts, that are culminations of 2000 years of learning. The initial ideas are profound and powerful, but we've surpassed their limitations.

[Cadre]

Quote by: Isherwood I'm even more interested in the role of religion in today's societies without "using a culmination of the past 2000 years of learning". To me the frustration is using 2000 year old standards to govern our 21st century world.

Thats pretty much what I'm saying

[Jack]

The initial ideas are profound and powerful, but we've surpassed their limitations.

I say we've outgrown our need for a god, but you've put it more eloquently.

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: Isherwood I would hope no one here really expects to change minds or win converts.

That's what I'm saying: discussions in the form of debates are great. It's when people think they've won or can change fundamental opinions that the debate turns frivolous.

[Jack]

In my opinion, there's nothing worse than someone claiming victory in a debate when the reality is that no one has the patience to debate them anymore due to their poor debating style. "I win because I'm so obnoxious no one will talk to me anymore!!" Woot. We've had a few like that.

[Epistemologist]

When it comes to more fundamental matters, I don't think it's right for any side to claim victory. They ought to keep it to themselves, because such things can't be decided through mere words.

[Cadre]

People would certainly be more open minded to each sides ideas if it weren't such an ego war.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

"I can acknowledge death but I cannot mourn it because death is not the end?

I must commend you on such an obvious attempt to stir the reflex of those desperate to disprove you by citing blindly that while they know thier loved ones have moved on and still exist they still feel sorrow.

Allow me to ruffle your feathers a little.. How many children cry on thier first day of school? Enough, I can assure you, do not cite to me numbers of personal fammily members whome didn't cry

Majority of children have not known life without thier mother or father, even if they did there still remains a level of uncertainty during that moment, it is unnatural to be without them both for any period (at that age).
This is NOT the same as death, this is an example of uncertainty, fear perhaps? You may be attempting to argue that people mourn out of fear..
That arguement would be speculation at best.

I would like to think that people mourne because of the time they felt they spent unwisely with regards to the person who has passed away and also out of a certain level of selfishness.

Indeed. I would expect an Atheist to have more reason to mourne then a christian which is where I believe you are headed with this am I wrong?
If so it would explain where you were attempting to lead this conversation into, it would also explain your next main arguementative point, which would be to lead the arguement towards if theists believe in god then they have no real reason to mourn as thier loved ones haven't truelly died any way.

From there in some form or manner you were trying to imply that because they do mourne they don't really believe in god themselves, using the fact they mourne as evidence.

However the act of mourning can be for any number of reasons, I would think a drastic change in one's life would be an example of such, and some one close to you dying is as drastic as they can get."

I see your point that people mourn the dead because they are not in the company of the deceased anymore, like say when some womans husband leaves her. But people somehow do know that there is no God, and the reason is that they also know that they will die someone as well, and it reminds them of their own mortality. They are afraid of their own demise, of being lonely, which is a selfish thought. If it was proven that we went to a better place after we die, would we not rejoice and celebrate someones death? I certainly do think so.