Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

**Jack** · Dec 23, 2006, 05:00 pm

Damn, Lullaby Chainer, that's sharp. Maybe Jason ought to have you augment Chris's tutorial with clips like that. Sometimes pictures are clearer than words.

Lullaby Chainer · Dec 23, 2006, 05:12 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

Damn, Lullaby Chainer, that's sharp. Maybe Jason ought to have you augment Chris's tutorial with clips like that. Sometimes pictures are clearer than words.

I would be very happy to if they ask! :]

That particular .gif looks weird cause the damn region selection thing got in the way of recording.

**Chris the Chees** · Dec 23, 2006, 05:17 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer

I would be very happy to if they ask! :]

That particular .gif looks weird cause the damn region selection thing got in the way of recording.

If it can be improved then, as far as I am concerned go for it.I would check with jason first, but I have no doubt it will be fine.

Castle · Dec 24, 2006, 12:33 am

Quote:

Quote by: Fonceai

Part a) fails. I agree that God would know and God would be able to stop, but where it fails is on the word want.

Quote:

Quote by: Fonceai

Part b) fails. This, again, is assuming motivation on behalf of God.

Does 'omnibevolent' ring a bell? You know, the whole "wanting good things for people" thing? And how suffering is a bad thing?

Quote:

Quote by: Fonceai

That's assuming motivation, and thus defining God.

Which is a perfectly OK thing. We define God as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, because that's what's been claimed in the Bible.

Quote:

Quote by: Fonceai

It's not that God is incapable of proving his existence. It's that God chooses not to.

That agrees with my point, not refutes it. My argument relates to why God chooses not to.

Quote:

Much of these arguements including the one's focused arround theists version of god can be countered by the logic that if YOU were god wanting to test the faith of your creations would you REALLY give them certain truth?

How does Hell test anyone's faith? It just hurts people. And I have issues with testing faith at the expense of lots and lots of needless suffering (as should an omnibenevolent God)

Quote:

Quote by: Fonceai

The Bible really never claims god is all-loving.

Ahem...

Quote:

Quote by: Psalm 86:15

But you, O Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness.

Quote:

Quote by: Lamentations 3:22

Because of the LORD's great love we are not consumed, for his compassions never fail.

Quote:

Quote by: Micah 7:18-19

Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy.

19 You will again have compassion on us;
you will tread our sins underfoot
and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea.

Quote:

Quote by: 2 Corinthians 1:3

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort

Etc.

Fonceai · Dec 24, 2006, 07:53 am

86:15 includes "slow to anger". Can't be omni-benevolent if you get angry, can you?

The capacity to love infinitely is not the same thing as unconditional love.

Epistemologist · Dec 24, 2006, 07:58 am

Quote:

Quote by: Fonceai

86:15 includes "slow to anger". Can't be omni-benevolent if you get angry, can you?

The capacity to love infinitely is not the same thing as unconditional love.

Still, the omni-benevolent definition could work, since that anger might be the a way to achieve benevolence. And there may be some things out of the set of optimal options to be omni-benevolent to, such as pure evil. Then again, Augustine defines evil as the lack of God rather than an actually tangible entity, but there are many ways to look at it. Then again, your definition could work as well.

KillerArgument · Dec 24, 2006, 12:15 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

I await your demonstration.

Dear Isherwood,

Sorry I misread your post here. I think that my and my opponent's faith-based positions are unprovable.

Fonceai · Dec 24, 2006, 02:41 pm

@Epis

Again, it would appear that it becomes a matter of definitions.

When the definition is agreed upon then a means can be evaluated to test it.

When a definition is worded in such a way as to leave ambiguity, the conclusions aren't "honest".

God is just one of those things that can't be defined.

The way I look at it is this...

The nature of God usually implies the idea of being limitless. How can you bind something within a definition when it's nature implies being unbound?

Epistemologist · Dec 24, 2006, 02:45 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Fonceai

The nature of God usually implies the idea of being limitless. How can you bind something within a definition when it's nature implies being unbound?

I see. The infinite is inconceivable. That's one of the practical problems brought up with Pascal's Wager, where if game theory was applied, you'd be dealing with infinite gains and losses.

Fonceai · Dec 24, 2006, 09:29 pm

That's basically it. Infinity is undefined, thus is God.

Gods_Mercenary · Dec 25, 2006, 08:08 am

Pretty good definition.

Castle · Dec 30, 2006, 12:13 am

God is clearly defined by the Bible. And Fonceai, anger is not incompatible with all-lovingness (at least not in the sense of "wanting the best for everyone")

Epistemologist · Dec 30, 2006, 09:13 am

Quote:

Quote by: Castle

God is clearly defined by the Bible. And Fonceai, anger is not incompatible with all-lovingness (at least not in the sense of "wanting the best for everyone")

If that anger brings about the greater good for everyone, then why wouldn't they be compatible? God could still be all-loving even though he eliminates moral evil. They could still be compatible.

Gods_Mercenary · Dec 30, 2006, 10:50 am

Quote:

Quote by: Castle

God is clearly defined by the Bible. And Fonceai, anger is not incompatible with all-lovingness (at least not in the sense of "wanting the best for everyone")

God is not clearly defined by the Bible. Give me a quote where it says God is ... The closest thing to a defenition is "I am who am" which simply means that God is existance or that he's different to everyone. Other descriptions are just comparing Him to things.

**Jack** · Dec 30, 2006, 11:26 am

The Bible lists many attributes of the Christian god (slow to anger, etc.) which act as a definition. Actually the Bible alternates between telling us a lot about the character and attributes of god then telling us that god is unknowable and mysterious. Different writer's had differing styles of approaching the concept of god.

Gods_Mercenary · Dec 30, 2006, 11:38 am

Yes, you have to remember someone didn't just sit down and write the Bible, it's a work of countless authors with different outlooks and goals.

Castle · Jan 1, 2007, 06:30 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary

God is not clearly defined by the Bible. Give me a quote where it says God is ...

You know, there's a reason I said "the Bible", not "a verse in the Bible". Throughout the Bible it lists many characteristics of God, from which a composite definition can be derived.

Gods_Mercenary · Jan 1, 2007, 06:32 pm

An extremely vague and sometimes contradictory defenition, giving you an ability to make up your own mind.

Kamehameha34 · Jan 1, 2007, 09:52 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary

An extremely vague and sometimes contradictory defenition, giving you an ability to make up your own mind.

Seems like the only purpose of these "vague and contradictory" definitions is to enable a moving target.

KillerArgument · Jan 1, 2007, 10:25 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Castle

You know, there's a reason I said "the Bible", not "a verse in the Bible". Throughout the Bible it lists many characteristics of God, from which a composite definition can be derived.

Go Castle!

You rock!!

Jesus is with you, and you will crush all your enemies in argument!

KillerArgument

Dec 23, 2006, 05:00 pm	#121 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 12,870	Damn, Lullaby Chainer, that's sharp. Maybe Jason ought to have you augment Chris's tutorial with clips like that. Sometimes pictures are clearer than words. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Dec 25, 2006, 08:08 am	#131 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,795	Pretty good definition. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Dec 30, 2006, 11:26 am	#135 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 12,870	The Bible lists many attributes of the Christian god (slow to anger, etc.) which act as a definition. Actually the Bible alternates between telling us a lot about the character and attributes of god then telling us that god is unknowable and mysterious. Different writer's had differing styles of approaching the concept of god. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Dec 30, 2006, 11:38 am	#136 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,795	Yes, you have to remember someone didn't just sit down and write the Bible, it's a work of countless authors with different outlooks and goals. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Jan 1, 2007, 06:32 pm	#138 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,795	An extremely vague and sometimes contradictory defenition, giving you an ability to make up your own mind. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Dec 24, 2006, 07:53 am	#125 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	86:15 includes "slow to anger". Can't be omni-benevolent if you get angry, can you? The capacity to love infinitely is not the same thing as unconditional love.

Dec 24, 2006, 02:41 pm	#128 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	@Epis Again, it would appear that it becomes a matter of definitions. When the definition is agreed upon then a means can be evaluated to test it. When a definition is worded in such a way as to leave ambiguity, the conclusions aren't "honest". God is just one of those things that can't be defined. The way I look at it is this... The nature of God usually implies the idea of being limitless. How can you bind something within a definition when it's nature implies being unbound?

Dec 24, 2006, 09:29 pm	#130 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	That's basically it. Infinity is undefined, thus is God.

Dec 30, 2006, 12:13 am	#132 (permalink) (top)
Castle Igneous Magma Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 265	God is clearly defined by the Bible. And Fonceai, anger is not incompatible with all-lovingness (at least not in the sense of "wanting the best for everyone")