Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

KillerArgument · Dec 21, 2006, 04:23 pm

Give me an example of "supporting a fact-based claim."

This is all circular reasoning, is it not? The claim is supported by logic and evidence chosen because of the claim which was chosen by faith.

KillerArgument · Dec 21, 2006, 04:25 pm

Merc,

Yes, that's exactly it. Believing is just as logical as not believing. And EVERYBODY believes many things without adequate evidence and logic.

KillerArgument · Dec 21, 2006, 04:29 pm

Lullaby,

Where's the example of a winning argument, please? Surely you won one once. Surely the point of debate is to win.

KillerArgument · Dec 21, 2006, 04:33 pm

Z,

Moral freewill necessitates the possibility of moral wrong-doing.

Moral wrong-doing demands punishment.

KillerArgument · Dec 21, 2006, 04:35 pm

Merc,

You say Lullaby is "right" about saying I shouldn't preach.

*Logically*, how do you determine what is "right"?

Please don't try to force your morality on me.

**Matt W** · Dec 21, 2006, 04:39 pm

Please....use the quote function.....and try and post altogether, not little one-liners after one another - it's very distracting and quite confusing.

KillerArgument · Dec 21, 2006, 04:44 pm

Matt,

Help me out here.

The quote thing doesn't allow me to go back and forth.

The one-liners are responding to each person individually. They are short because the substance is short--generally they are longer. What does length have to with an effective answer, anyway?

I'm doing this for fun, not working a job.

Thanks.

KillerArgument · Dec 21, 2006, 05:03 pm

Explaining why an all-loving god inflicts (through inaction) suffering is a little like attempting to explain why an all-powerful being cannot lift a 50 lbs rock: it's nonsensical.

Not really, if alleviation of suffering is not the greatest good--and it isn't. Biblically, God's glory is the highest ideal.

An all-loving god would be absolutely compelled to eliminate suffering or else lose the title "all-loving".

Who died and made you God? Support your assertion with logic.

I'm afraid the only nonsense is quoted above. Claiming the Christian god is responsible for creation is a type of "god of the gaps" reasoning. It's the same logic that says "Zeus created thunder" and "Ra created the sun". We know that complex structures occur naturally. Thus, your argument fails.

You mean to tell me you actually believe that Zeus did NOT create thunder??

Complex structures occur naturally NOW. But they did not COME INTO EXISTENCE naturally. (sorry, I don't have italics.)

And kindly cease making statements like "There is no human who does not know that God exists". Such statements are demonstrably false and useless in a debate.

Maybe according to logic, but not according to reality. It makes you mad because God said it, and you know it's true.

They are the other side of the coin from "all theists KNOW god doesn't exist and are just brainwashed". You'll NEVER see me make such an argument because it's just silly.

Thank God you'll never say anything silly.

Smile. There is no hell.

Logically, how do you know there is no Hell?

How come all the pagans in here make assertions without logic, but the Christian has to use logic. Seems kinda racist to me.

Smile if you are Christian: you're not going to Hell.

The gospel Jesus never existed.[/quote]

KillerArgument · Dec 21, 2006, 05:06 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary

Stop refuting him like he's making an actual argument.

Stop reading Mercenary like he's writng an actual post.

KillerArgument · Dec 21, 2006, 05:09 pm

Teach me, O Great Chainer of Witchcraft Lullabys.

KillerArgument · Dec 21, 2006, 05:11 pm

Lullaby,

Give me an example of a point that's "good enough," so I can refute it.

...or are you afraid?

Lullaby Chainer · Dec 21, 2006, 06:16 pm

Quote:

Quote by: KillerArgument

Lullaby,

If appeal to authority is a "fallacy"--why are the laws of logic valid?

What the hell are you talking about? -_-

Eh.. I figured you must be a troll from the very beginning. That or you are severely confused on what a debate is.. I have to blame religious brainwashing. : /

So, if you're a troll.. please just go away. If you aren't a troll.. please learn how to debate.

Thanks.

Kamehameha34 · Dec 21, 2006, 06:24 pm

Something tells me KA is just a bored member with a different account who came here to degenerate the topic into senseless subjective denial :rolleyes:

**Jason** · Dec 21, 2006, 07:04 pm

Killer, you can use the multiquote function by clicking the button on the right of each post that looks like a quotation mark with a plus sign. Click that for each post you wish to quote. Then, hit the Reply button on the bottom of the page. Quotes will appear between [quote] tags.

Your current posting format is extremely disruptive to the flow of debate. Please do not let it continue.

**Jack** · Dec 21, 2006, 07:04 pm

Quote:

And kindly cease making statements like "There is no human who does not know that God exists". Such statements are demonstrably false...

I await your demonstration.

Kamehameha34 · Dec 21, 2006, 07:19 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

I await your demonstration.

The fact that I question the existence of a god means that I don't know one exists, thus demonstrating a counterexample.

bishop · Dec 21, 2006, 07:53 pm

"killerargument", go here: http://www.volconvo.com/forums/site-...tes-lists.html

Castle · Dec 21, 2006, 08:00 pm

Quote:

Quote by: killerargument

There is no human who does not know that God exists

Patently false. I do not know that God exists, and billions around the world (the majority, in fact) agree with me.

Quote:

Quote by: killerargument

God's justice involves giving unhappiness to those evil people who have sinned, and pain to those who think they can defy God and spit in His face with impunity.

See, and if you guys didn't claim that God was omnibenevolent, that wouldn't be a problem...

ByaKya · Dec 21, 2006, 08:38 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer

The only being that deserves Hell is God.

OWNED !

Fonceai · Dec 21, 2006, 08:58 pm

@Castle

Did some thinking about this. I agree with your conclusion but I think your rationale is flawed.

Quote:

Quote by: Castle

The Christian God, that is. I wouldn't be quite so arrogant as to make a categorical statements about all gods (indeed, I couldn't even define the term).

I agree with that completely. Since we can't define God we can't disprove the undefined. It's like trying to disprove infinity... you can't disprove it until you know what it is... but since infinity is limitless, you can't know all of it. Conversely, we can't prove infinity, either. We just accept the use of the concept.

Quote:

Quote by: Castle

1) The Argument From Suffering
a) God would know about, be able to stop, and want to stop needless suffering

Part a) fails. I agree that God would know and God would be able to stop, but where it fails is on the word want. That's assuming motivation, and thus defining God.

If you wanted to use the Bible as counterproof, there are plenty of innocents who God allowed to die during the Great Flood.

Quote:

Quote by: Castle

2) The Argument From Lack of Evidence
a) Knowing that God exists is important to making an informed decision about Hell and accepting Jesus
b) God could provide proof of his existence

Part b) fails. It's not that God is incapable of proving his existence. It's that God chooses not to. By saying "could" you imply inability, not indifference or some other sort of choice.

Quote:

Quote by: Castle

3) The Argument From 'Hell sucks'
a) Hell's only purpose is to increase unhappiness
b) God would not create something whose only purpose was to increase unhappiness

Part b) fails. This, again, is assuming motivation on behalf of God.

As counterproof, further Christian mythology tells the story of what happened to Jesus after his death. He went to Hell. After all, he was full of the sins of all humanity for all humanity's existence. In Hell, Jesus gathered together all of those who were sent to Hell not because they were sinners but because they could not live according to the true Gospel of Jesus.

This, in addition to the fact that God allowed his own son to go to Hell, doesn't jive with your third claim.

---

Personally, I dismiss the Christian God because all denominations of Christianity started with Catholicism. Catholicism picked and chose parts of other religions in order to create something people could all find commonality in. Once the Catholic church started taxing the life out of people to build pretty structures, a large group of Catholics protested. They became Protestants.

Historically, every non-Catholic Christian sprang from Protestant. You might even call Protestant the other half of Christianity.

Regardless, since all derivations of Christianity originated with Catholicism, and since the Christian God is an amalgamation of concepts, it can't be possible for the Christian God to be real if his attributes were a matter of consensus and agreement not due to witness, but due to comfort.

Dec 21, 2006, 04:23 pm	#61 (permalink) (top)
KillerArgument Igneous Magma Posts: 185	Give me an example of "supporting a fact-based claim." This is all circular reasoning, is it not? The claim is supported by logic and evidence chosen because of the claim which was chosen by faith. Jesus saves all who believe that He died on the cross for their sins, was buried, and rose on the third day. Please see my website and blog links at www.graceandtruth.name

Dec 21, 2006, 04:25 pm	#62 (permalink) (top)
KillerArgument Igneous Magma Posts: 185	Merc, Yes, that's exactly it. Believing is just as logical as not believing. And EVERYBODY believes many things without adequate evidence and logic. Jesus saves all who believe that He died on the cross for their sins, was buried, and rose on the third day. Please see my website and blog links at www.graceandtruth.name

Dec 21, 2006, 04:29 pm	#63 (permalink) (top)
KillerArgument Igneous Magma Posts: 185	Lullaby, Where's the example of a winning argument, please? Surely you won one once. Surely the point of debate is to win. Jesus saves all who believe that He died on the cross for their sins, was buried, and rose on the third day. Please see my website and blog links at www.graceandtruth.name

Dec 21, 2006, 04:33 pm	#64 (permalink) (top)
KillerArgument Igneous Magma Posts: 185	Z, Moral freewill necessitates the possibility of moral wrong-doing. Moral wrong-doing demands punishment. Jesus saves all who believe that He died on the cross for their sins, was buried, and rose on the third day. Please see my website and blog links at www.graceandtruth.name

Dec 21, 2006, 04:35 pm	#65 (permalink) (top)
KillerArgument Igneous Magma Posts: 185	Merc, You say Lullaby is "right" about saying I shouldn't preach. Logically, how do you determine what is "right"? Please don't try to force your morality on me. Jesus saves all who believe that He died on the cross for their sins, was buried, and rose on the third day. Please see my website and blog links at www.graceandtruth.name

Dec 21, 2006, 04:39 pm	#66 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,197	Please....use the quote function.....and try and post altogether, not little one-liners after one another - it's very distracting and quite confusing. I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Dec 21, 2006, 04:44 pm	#67 (permalink) (top)
KillerArgument Igneous Magma Posts: 185	Matt, Help me out here. The quote thing doesn't allow me to go back and forth. The one-liners are responding to each person individually. They are short because the substance is short--generally they are longer. What does length have to with an effective answer, anyway? I'm doing this for fun, not working a job. Thanks. Jesus saves all who believe that He died on the cross for their sins, was buried, and rose on the third day. Please see my website and blog links at www.graceandtruth.name

Dec 21, 2006, 05:03 pm	#68 (permalink) (top)
KillerArgument Igneous Magma Posts: 185	Explaining why an all-loving god inflicts (through inaction) suffering is a little like attempting to explain why an all-powerful being cannot lift a 50 lbs rock: it's nonsensical. Not really, if alleviation of suffering is not the greatest good--and it isn't. Biblically, God's glory is the highest ideal. An all-loving god would be absolutely compelled to eliminate suffering or else lose the title "all-loving". Who died and made you God? Support your assertion with logic. I'm afraid the only nonsense is quoted above. Claiming the Christian god is responsible for creation is a type of "god of the gaps" reasoning. It's the same logic that says "Zeus created thunder" and "Ra created the sun". We know that complex structures occur naturally. Thus, your argument fails. You mean to tell me you actually believe that Zeus did NOT create thunder?? Complex structures occur naturally NOW. But they did not COME INTO EXISTENCE naturally. (sorry, I don't have italics.) And kindly cease making statements like "There is no human who does not know that God exists". Such statements are demonstrably false and useless in a debate. Maybe according to logic, but not according to reality. It makes you mad because God said it, and you know it's true. They are the other side of the coin from "all theists KNOW god doesn't exist and are just brainwashed". You'll NEVER see me make such an argument because it's just silly. Thank God you'll never say anything silly. Smile. There is no hell. Logically, how do you know there is no Hell? How come all the pagans in here make assertions without logic, but the Christian has to use logic. Seems kinda racist to me. Smile if you are Christian: you're not going to Hell. The gospel Jesus never existed.[/quote] Jesus saves all who believe that He died on the cross for their sins, was buried, and rose on the third day. Please see my website and blog links at www.graceandtruth.name

Dec 21, 2006, 05:09 pm	#70 (permalink) (top)
KillerArgument Igneous Magma Posts: 185	Teach me, O Great Chainer of Witchcraft Lullabys. Jesus saves all who believe that He died on the cross for their sins, was buried, and rose on the third day. Please see my website and blog links at www.graceandtruth.name

Dec 21, 2006, 05:11 pm	#71 (permalink) (top)
KillerArgument Igneous Magma Posts: 185	Lullaby, Give me an example of a point that's "good enough," so I can refute it. ...or are you afraid? Jesus saves all who believe that He died on the cross for their sins, was buried, and rose on the third day. Please see my website and blog links at www.graceandtruth.name

Dec 21, 2006, 06:24 pm	#73 (permalink) (top)
Kamehameha34 The dingos! Posts: 4,548	Something tells me KA is just a bored member with a different account who came here to degenerate the topic into senseless subjective denial :rolleyes:

Dec 21, 2006, 07:04 pm	#74 (permalink) (top)
Jason westernstreet7.com Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,887	Killer, you can use the multiquote function by clicking the button on the right of each post that looks like a quotation mark with a plus sign. Click that for each post you wish to quote. Then, hit the Reply button on the bottom of the page. Quotes will appear between [quote] tags. Your current posting format is extremely disruptive to the flow of debate. Please do not let it continue. Please follow the rules. Like this site? Donations are appreciated.

Dec 21, 2006, 07:53 pm	#77 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	"killerargument", go here: http://www.volconvo.com/forums/site-...tes-lists.html hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/