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Castle · Dec 20, 2006, 06:16 pm

Quote:

Quote by: The Bacon Guy

An all-encompassing emotional love of freedom?

Uh-huh... OK, I suspect this particular point isn't very debateable. You go with "emotion" and I'll go with "arbitrariness", and we'll just agree to disagree?

Gods_Mercenary · Dec 20, 2006, 06:20 pm

That is based on emotion, people don't like having their belongings taken. Ultimately a discussion of morals comes down to emotion. Anyway, you seem to be under the impression that humans are logical beings, an illogical assumption.

Castle · Dec 20, 2006, 06:22 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary

Anyway, you seem to be under the impression that humans are logical beings, an illogical assumption.

Claim: morality is not (logically) justifiable. Nothing more, nothing less.

Gods_Mercenary · Dec 20, 2006, 06:25 pm

O.K. I guess you're right.

The Bacon Guy · Dec 20, 2006, 06:28 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Castle

Uh-huh... OK, I suspect this particular point isn't very debateable. You go with "emotion" and I'll go with "arbitrariness", and we'll just agree to disagree?

Well, I define emotion as arbitrary, so our views amount to the same thing.

PatrickHenry · Dec 20, 2006, 06:52 pm

So Castle you don't acknowledge that an orderly society is a logical validity?

Castle · Dec 20, 2006, 07:35 pm

Quote:

Quote by: PatrickHenry

So Castle you don't acknowledge that an orderly society is a logical validity?

Umm...no. I don't, as it happens, accept anything without reason.

Gods_Mercenary · Dec 20, 2006, 08:21 pm

So Hitler was right then, the human race needs to be purified by genocide, that's logically correct, according to natural selection, after all. Interesting viewpoint. You are insane, but interesting.

The Bacon Guy · Dec 20, 2006, 08:23 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary

So Hitler was right then, the human race needs to be purified by genocide, that's logically correct, according to natural selection, after all. Interesting viewpoint. You are insane, but interesting.

Where's the logic in following natural selection?

Gods_Mercenary · Dec 20, 2006, 08:28 pm

By preventing "undesirables" to breed, the "better" people will evolve at a faster pace.

Kamehameha34 · Dec 20, 2006, 08:30 pm

The fact that you think morality is insubstantial is, in and of itself, insubstantial; you came to that conclusion through your personal deliberation.

To someone else, morals could be a perfectly valid component in their decision making.

This is why we have a democracy. Make the bigger group happy, when you can't make both happy, unless the happiness of the bigger group directly harms the smaller group through not only inadvertant deprivation, but proactive victimization.

Of course, to accept that making the "bigger group happy when both can't, concurrently", you'd have to accept that happiness is a good state :rolleyes:

The Bacon Guy · Dec 20, 2006, 08:32 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary

By preventing "undesirables" to breed, the "better" people will evolve at a faster pace.

Once again, where is the logic in wanting the species to evolve at a faster pace?

Gods_Mercenary · Dec 20, 2006, 08:35 pm

We live longer, are rid of genetic defects and diseases, so on.

The Bacon Guy · Dec 20, 2006, 08:38 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary

We live longer, are rid of genetic defects and diseases, so on.

And where is the logic in wanting to live longer and rid ourselves of genetic defects?

Castle · Dec 20, 2006, 08:42 pm

Quote:

Quote by: God's_Mercenary

So Hitler was right then, the human race needs to be purified by genocide, that's logically correct, according to natural selection, after all. Interesting viewpoint.

Not mine. Are you talking to yourself or something?

Now, I would argue that that particular viewpoint isn't more or less justified than any other...

Quote:

Quote by: Kamehameha34

The fact that you think morality is insubstantial is, in and of itself, insubstantial; you came to that conclusion through your personal deliberation.

No; through logic.

Kamehameha34 · Dec 20, 2006, 08:50 pm

Quote:

No; through logic.

What makes you think that the morals of the majority shouldn't be strictly adhered to?

Gods_Mercenary · Dec 20, 2006, 08:51 pm

No, I'm talking to you, Hitler's idea was pretty "Logical". And you say that you believe nothing that isn't rational, so without an illogical belief in the value of human life, you might come upon Hitler's conclusion.

Castle · Dec 20, 2006, 08:51 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Kamehameha34

What makes you think that the morals of the majority shouldn't be strictly adhered to?

Au contraire; it's the only reasonable way to do things. But even the majority's morality is not justified; it's just popular.

Kamehameha34 · Dec 20, 2006, 08:53 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Castle

Au contraire; it's the only reasonable way to do things. But even the majority's morality is not justified; it's just popular.

What makes you think that the majority's morality is not justified?

Hopefully you see where I'm going with this. Your belief that morality is insubstantial on all levels is, in and of itself, based on the belief that all substantiality must be founded from logic.

The Bacon Guy · Dec 20, 2006, 08:54 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary

And you say that you believe nothing that isn't rational, so without an illogical belief in the value of human life, you might come upon Hitler's conclusion.

Only if he held the equally illogical view that purifying the human race is the right thing to do.

Dec 20, 2006, 06:20 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,286	That is based on emotion, people don't like having their belongings taken. Ultimately a discussion of morals comes down to emotion. Anyway, you seem to be under the impression that humans are logical beings, an illogical assumption. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Dec 20, 2006, 06:25 pm	#24 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,286	O.K. I guess you're right. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Dec 20, 2006, 06:52 pm	#26 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,446	So Castle you don't acknowledge that an orderly society is a logical validity? "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Dec 20, 2006, 08:21 pm	#28 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,286	So Hitler was right then, the human race needs to be purified by genocide, that's logically correct, according to natural selection, after all. Interesting viewpoint. You are insane, but interesting. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Dec 20, 2006, 08:28 pm	#30 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,286	By preventing "undesirables" to breed, the "better" people will evolve at a faster pace. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Dec 20, 2006, 08:30 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
Kamehameha34 The dingos! Posts: 4,458	The fact that you think morality is insubstantial is, in and of itself, insubstantial; you came to that conclusion through your personal deliberation. To someone else, morals could be a perfectly valid component in their decision making. This is why we have a democracy. Make the bigger group happy, when you can't make both happy, unless the happiness of the bigger group directly harms the smaller group through not only inadvertant deprivation, but proactive victimization. Of course, to accept that making the "bigger group happy when both can't, concurrently", you'd have to accept that happiness is a good state :rolleyes:

Dec 20, 2006, 08:35 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,286	We live longer, are rid of genetic defects and diseases, so on. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Dec 20, 2006, 08:51 pm	#37 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,286	No, I'm talking to you, Hitler's idea was pretty "Logical". And you say that you believe nothing that isn't rational, so without an illogical belief in the value of human life, you might come upon Hitler's conclusion. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein