Methods for proving God's existence?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Does evolution make claims that can be falsified?

Yes.

Is there a hidden point you're trying to make or do you really need me to explain?

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Yes. Is there a hidden point you're trying to make or do you really need me to explain?

Just one example would be good for me.

I believe in evolution because it makes the most sense to me. It seems to me, however, that evolution is one of those theories in which any observable outcome could be explained with a little creativity.

So, yes, what is a falsifiable claim of evolution. This is not really for me to debate with, but to help me think it through.

thanks

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Isherwood Regardless of what atheists can "prove", science does not concern itself with questions of a philosophical nature unless they form the basis of a hypothesis to be tested. That's why ID is so easily dismissed. It presents no testable hypothesis. It makes claims that cannot be falsified.

Exactly, God cannot be proven non-existant because He is a subject of Philosophy, not science

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Exactly, God cannot be proven non-existant because He is a subject of Philosophy, not science

Correct, just as you can't prove that little goblin men didn't kill your dog and replace it with an exact replica.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Just one example would be good for me. I believe in evolution because it makes the most sense to me. It seems to me, however, that evolution is one of those theories in which any observable outcome could be explained with a little creativity. So, yes, what is a falsifiable claim of evolution. This is not really for me to debate with, but to help me think it through. thanks

It's not that evolution is unfalsifiable, it's that it has accrued enough evidence to counter most, if not all reasonable objections.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 It's not that evolution is unfalsifiable, it's that it has accrued enough evidence to counter most, if not all reasonable objections.

Which is why I believe it.

But, I am just asking if evolution makes any falsifiable predictions?

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Which is why I believe it. But, I am just asking if evolution makes any falsifiable predictions?

That is like asking for falsifiable evidence: an oxy moron.

The theory of evolution is soundly based in evidence, and nothing more.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Just one example would be good for me. I believe in evolution because it makes the most sense to me. It seems to me, however, that evolution is one of those theories in which any observable outcome could be explained with a little creativity. So, yes, what is a falsifiable claim of evolution. This is not really for me to debate with, but to help me think it through. thanks

Richard Dawkins-

British scientist J.B.S. Haldane, when asked what would constitute evidence against evolution, famously said, "Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian." They've never been found. Nothing like that has ever been found. Evolution could be disproved by such facts. But all the fossils that have been found are in the right place. Of course there are plenty of gaps in the fossil record. There's nothing wrong with that. Why shouldn't there be? We're lucky to have fossils at all. But no fossils have been found in the wrong place, such as to disprove the fact of evolution. Evolution is a fact.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Does evolution make claims that can be falsified?

Absolutely and it makes predictions, many of which have been proven to be true. Creationism offers nothing.

[Jesus]

The day God is proven(or disproven) is the day we learn why the Universe exists...therefore, the day we learn why the Universe exists is the day God is proven (or disproven).
Why does the Universe exist, and what is it? Where did it come from? Is it a part of something bigger?

Incredibly we are here at this moment in time where we have the ability to probe into this quest with wonderous capabilities.

Sight...Sound...Smell...Feel...Taste...memory.

We are the ideal probe for the task at hand.

It has been one of the most perplexing questions that man has sought after for a very long time.

What if what we are looking for has already come and is right in front of us?

Ok...in fact it is right in front of us...so what do we call it? The Universe? The Kingdom of Heaven? Who cares what we call it?

Would you believe you are in the Universe? Would you believe you are in the Kingdom of Heaven ? What the heck, why not call it the Kingdom of Heaven...it's just words.

Would you believe the return of Jesus is not what most people think or say, and that perhaps the spirit of Jesus never left? JESUS CHRIST you say!!!

Don't believe that one? Ok...ask him to visit you in your dreams while you are asleep and see if he shows up.
Question is will you recognize him. Will you recognize him to see him? No one really knows what he actually looked liked.
Will you recognize his heart when you feel his presence, as he is able to recognize your heart? You may be surprised by this one, as to how easy it is to recognize the heart of Jesus.

What if we are the sons of the father, or life force entity? Are we preprogramed? It would seem we do have some preprograming built into our bodies. Programing at a molecular level. Is God at the molecular level? Does he/she have an eternal language? Is God inside the autogenes? :)

Well...we all get one kick at the can of life...live it well, and along the way help those in need in what ever way you can...be it financially, intellectually, emotionally. And when you give, say to your self, "ever second of my life alters the future for millions of people." :)

The thing which you give is not important...it is the willingness within your heart to give, that is important.

The condition of your heart is at what needs to be nurtured, and where many have fallen.

We are all the same.

Those who hate need not to be hated, rather despise them as deniers of truth...of the truth that is in their hearts that they think they can hide.

All things are visible in the Kingdom of Heaven.

If Jesus were here I think he would say, " ah f*#k it, they are all a bunch of idiots for nurturing the darkness in their hearts. Wake me up when they are done killing each other and playing the goodguys vs. the badguys BullSht."

Good night.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Jesus The day God is proven(or disproven) is the day we learn why the Universe exists...therefore, the day we learn why the Universe exists is the day God is proven (or disproven). Why does the Universe exist, and what is it? Where did it come from? Is it a part of something bigger?

Which is why I came to the conclusion, personlly, that he doesn't exist as we understand it in today's religions. I've seen it and understand what it's all about and he wasn't a part of it.

Incredibly we are here at this moment in time where we have the ability to probe into this quest with wonderous capabilities. Sight...Sound...Smell...Feel...Taste...memory. We are the ideal probe for the task at hand. It has been one of the most perplexing questions that man has sought after for a very long time.

I personally feel that God was invented by us as an end goal of understandnig. Most of the time when we want to learn something, or understand it, we have to have measures to get to where we need to be. Factors, limitations, balance, and end result.

To understand what the universe is all about and to understand what our purpose is, we created a limitation of "God" and since then, we have been seeking answers to get us closer to this limit.

Kinda like trying to find the end result of Pi. or to reach infinity. We set ourselves an end goal that is almost impossible for us to reach for many many years. Once we figure it out, another question will come about.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I like that you say that you personally feel that, and don't try to present it as irrefutable fact, I can respect your belief.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I like that you say that you personally feel that, and don't try to present it as irrefutable fact, I can respect your belief.

Not many people can handle respecting a belief you disagree with. I think it's quite honorable to acknowledge that someone is keeping it personal and isn't trying to apply it to the rest of the world.

[Gods_Mercenary]

you tend to be fairly open as well

[samsara15]

I don't feel that the existence or non-existence of God can be proven or disproven by any method which is purely deductive. I think we have to look at the actual world / universe, and see if what evidence we see there. Inductive, which makes it probabilistic.

[Jesus]

My Vision of Jesus:

Scholars do agree that the early church set out to use religion to control the uneducated masses of the time (and perhaps to a certain extent to this day). Fabrication and interpretation to what extent my be the more appropriate approach to take when looking at specific gospels and written words about God and Jesus and the rest of us.

Matters of the heart are what I think Jesus was most fascinated with when he walked the earth...if indeed he did exist.

I do embrace matters of the heart within my own world that look at why people behave the way they do. I have to say that my belief system has a foundation based in psychology more than religion...although the two often overlap.
Perhaps Jesus was someone who became deeply concerned about the amount of negativity in some and the contrasting enlightenment in others.

I look at it from a more constructive approach where you have 24 hours in a day...asking yourself how many of those 24 hours are spent in negative thought processes and how much are spent in positive thought processes, with the ideal being the latter.

I don't think either one out weighs the other when reaching for conclusions as to why we feel the way we do, for example when experiencing the toxic feelings when around others who are inappropriate for us to be around...or why we feel the way we do when we are alone for extended periods of time in a state of peace and harmony with our favorite music, candle light, incense, warm tropical trade winds, the smell of the ocean.

Both are equal contributors that should be embraced long enough to reach conclusions as to what steps to take next.

One thing I noticed is we can intellectualize the behavior manifestations of those around us on one hand, while on the other we hand we cannot avoid the emotional impact these same individuals have on us...or we cannot avoid it after a period of time has passed.
We feel each other, and we cannot simply flip a switch and turn it off.

Inappropriate behavior is inappropriate behavior and one would do better to set boundaries as deemed appropriate...unless of course your job is that of a psychologist. Even they need to take time out to regroup.

Another interesting reality is that we are all haunted by the previous generations before us, every where we turn in society. Everyone is a complete reflection of how their life has been for them since birth, and a reflection of those around that individual since birth, and a reflection of everyone else around everyone else of that individual, and a reflection of the legacy of those who came before all of us who passed on generations upon generations of behaviors both good and bad.

Stand still long enough to embrace and internalize this macro thinking perspective, then add to the equation that every second of your life alters the future for millions of people generations from now.

That is where everyone is from one moment to the next, whether they realize it or not.

Cultivating within ourselves a perspective may be the door that opens wide for some, while perhaps only a little for others during their life.

Perhaps the kingdom of heaven is a perspective. Perhaps Jesus is a perspective or body of knowledge with which to see thru. His teachings are wondrous and extraordinary at a personal level for me. I prefer to read his teachings in solitude, rather than in congregations. I tend to feel or sense his emotions more in this way, while in a state of peace and harmony where I think Jesus may have been seeking for himself while walking on earth, if indeed he did actually walk on earth. Some think Jesus is in another dimension, often referred to as a spirit realm that may exist. While it may seem rediculous to many, or ghost like, I still hold out on the possibility of the existence of a spirit realm, simply by looking up at the night sky and seeing the massiveness of the universe, and thinking, wow, how much we really don't know!

Sort of like asking myself, "Well where would Jesus personally like to hang out?" or even more profound, "Let's say, if Jesus is walking the earth today, where could I find him, and would I recognize him if accidentally did stumble upon him?" I mean, would I actually be able to recognize him? And what would be the first thing Jesus would say to me if I did meet him for the first time? Would he have to say anything? Would he see into my soul everything that I am about and recognize the condition of my heart?

What would his movements be like? Would he be exceedingly graceful?
Would he smile or laugh? I don't see him smiling. Would he be the one to approach me first, because he recognizes my soul or my gracefulness? Would he see my intrepid fear of the world around me? Which would he recognize first...my sadness or my enlightenment?

Just a tidbit of what my mind ponders, and no, I am not a Christian. I am much more than that. No offense to the Christians, I just don't think the majority of Christians actually embrace Jesus, rather they prefer to embrace how they are viewed by others who see them standing in his light...and sometimes in his way.

Then there are those who internalize Jesus and are able to see the world (kingdom of heaven) thru his eyes.

I did meet Jesus in a vision. I was sitting under his cross below his feet. My eyes were closed when a drop struck me on the forehead. I opened my eyes and saw his feet above me. An emotional tidal wave came over me as I realized where I was. I felt Jesus more than I saw Jesus in the vision.
I begin to feel him emotionally as I look at him. It seems nothing else matters in life than this moment with him. I surrender completely and all elements of doubt wash away. I cannot move away from this moment, as I realize there is no where else I long to be emotionally. Time, food and even the air I breathe seem unimportant. He seems to know every single detail of my heart. There are no questions from him, only answers. I ask him, "Why do you let them do this to you?" Jesus replies, "I do this to reflect back at them the darkness in their hearts in order that they may in turn, eventually look away from the darkness in their hearts. I can feel and see the love in their hearts and I know they will grow tired of looking at what they think they have done. It is for the sake of them and those around them, and for those who have yet to come...because what I want for them is love."

What I don't know is it a drop of his blood that struck my forehead or was it his tears of love and sadness he has for us all?

To this day I am frozen in time emotionally with him in a place I will never leave.

Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Richard Dawkins- British scientist J.B.S. Haldane, when asked what would constitute evidence against evolution, famously said, "Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian." They've never been found. Nothing like that has ever been found. Evolution could be disproved by such facts. But all the fossils that have been found are in the right place. Of course there are plenty of gaps in the fossil record. There's nothing wrong with that. Why shouldn't there be? We're lucky to have fossils at all. But no fossils have been found in the wrong place, such as to disprove the fact of evolution. Evolution is a fact.

Excellent, thank you.

So, a falsifiable prediction would be:

Archaeologists will not find fossils in the wrong strata over the next 200 digs.

[Jesus]

In conclusion, I have to say that I do see trace evidence and manifestations, or likeness of Jesus in the lives of most people I come into contact with on a day to day basis. To what extent it actually is a trace footprint of Jesus, or the fabrication and or interpretation of the teachings of Jesus by others over the past 2000 years, I would have to say it is mostly the teachings and interpretations handed down by others that appears loosely based and on shaky ground, lacking the confidence or ingrained solidness one would deem appropriate for completing Jesus’ mission, yet at the core of many I sometimes see a bright light of hope that may in fact be a trace footprint of Jesus.

As for the existence of an eternal spirit realm, thought to exist in the DNA of our bodies by some and in the universe by others (life force entities), I would have to say, it would be nice if it were true...thereby giving Jesus the foundation necessary to fulfill his mission. It would also mean that Jesus never left, changing the question of his return to one of, "He never left!" Gulp! :)
It is often said that Jesus knew the beginning and the end of all men. This would hold true with the existence of an eternal dimension where he may dwell, or where he/she, or whatever you want to call it (life force entity?), may have always dwelled since the beginning of time…further backing up the statement by Jesus, “What you look for has already come.”

When you look at how our bodies reproduce another like image of self, it is obvious that our brains are functioning without us, as it attempts to be eternal, never to die.

For example, take a look at messenger RNAs within our bodies. They are the stringy molecules that relay the working orders of a cell from the genes to the protein-making factories. Throughout their daily lives, cells constantly transcribe the master instructions, archived in the DNA, into temporary messenger RNA memos.

Is it possible the instructions of an eternal teacher may exist in our DNA? Is it possible an eternal language may exist? It would seem an eternal language does exist according to the messenger RNAs.

There is one complication. After the RNA instructions have been satisfactorily carried out, the cell destroys them. Cells also have a surveillance system for locating and deleting the occasional RNA memo containing a mutation, or misspelling, which could have detrimental consequences to the body. There is a complex series of events leading to the death and destruction of a messenger RNA molecule that is incredible to watch. First, the "tail" of the long-chained molecule gets snipped off the back end of the strand. Next, a protective chemical "cap" is removed from the front end. Finally, the rest of the molecule is degraded piecemeal from front to back. There seems to be a protein that triggers the RNA decapping reaction that is always in a specific part of the cell...lending hope to the fight against disease.

There is hope for some messengers. In some circumstances, messenger RNA molecules may not be condemned to immediate death, like Jesus was. Instead, some stay in long-term storage, with a chance for release in case they're needed again in the future. :)

I will get back to you the moment I see any memos that indicate the presence of the one called Jesus or God, although given the complexity of our bodies and the universe, I think it is safe to say that if God does exist and is watching over us, he would likely have introduced him or herself by now, and solved some of the problems in the world, particularily in areas of disease. Forget about wars in the world, more die everyday from disease and starvation than in wars.

It would seem we are left alone to help one another best we can.

Man, I really should get out more.

Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones.

[Jagged]

^ right.

Quote by: Cephus Absolutely and it makes predictions, many of which have been proven to be true. Creationism offers nothing.

Exactly. We are arguing whether God exists or does not, or whether it can be proved logically either way, or whether evidence can even be put forth either way, but in the end we still are only arguing about God's mere existence, like Deism existence, and nothing else. Personally i don't think there was a creator because i see no need for one; however, if there was a creator, so what?