Methods for proving God's existence?

[Fonceai]

Convincing enough to believe he existed? Yes.

Convincing enough to obey him? He'd have to be one mean bastage.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Fonceai Convincing enough to believe he existed? Yes. Convincing enough to obey him? He'd have to be one mean bastage.

Well...

I would settle for just convincing us of his existence.

[The Sexorcist]

What if we took a true non-believer, and had him "pray", with all his heart, for as long as it took for god to give him/her a solid, straightforword sign that god exists?

Since apperantly god has directly talked to people before, I'm sure it wouldn't mind changing the mind of one true non-believer for the sake of proving himself.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready He supposedly gave us all free will to CHOOSE to follow him, or not.

Exactly, but as I pointed out in another debate today, it's not free will if he punishes you for exercising it. If we were really free to choose to follow God or not follow God as our free will dictated, there would be no hell for those who make the wrong decision.

In the end, the whole concept of free will in this context is nonsense. It's not free will if you get beaten with a stick for making the unfavorable choice.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Fonceai Convincing enough to believe he existed? Yes. Convincing enough to obey him? He'd have to be one mean bastage.

I agree. If God demonstrated that he existed, I'd have no choice but to believe that he was real. But if God was anything like he's portrayed in the Bible, I'd never worship him, he's a sick, sadistic bastard, unworthy of anything but scorn.

But accepting his reality? Certainly, I'd do that.

[Kuroko]

Let the preconceptions and already molded perceptions of god begin!

YeeHaw!

After creating a universe with a set of rules enabling this planet to exist at all, then to further that allowance to encorporate a vessel of sorts for our souls with no predjudice or preconception (from the creation that is) do you honestly think god would be so finicky over the seemingly trivial things in the OT?

I am simply saying that if you look at the actions taken to get to the point to which god could punish a city for not believing in him or following his guids and rules it would kind of defeat the purpose of allowing free will in the first place would it not? let alone defeat the purpose of even testing at all.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Cephus I agree. If God demonstrated that he existed, I'd have no choice but to believe that he was real. But if God was anything like he's portrayed in the Bible, I'd never worship him, he's a sick, sadistic bastard, unworthy of anything but scorn. But accepting his reality? Certainly, I'd do that.

Then again, he could have just been an alien with a lot more technology and intelligence then us and decided to show us some guidelines and we just took it one step further and claimed he was God...... then the alien realized he screwed up and then took off..... which is why we haven't seen or heard from "God" in a while.

[Fonceai]

Creating something through anti-matter / matter conversion, teleportation, and otherwise causing me incredible pain or ecstasy would qualify for me.

Darn it if those weren't highly advanced technologies that appeared to be Godlike.

[Praxius]

Jesus could have just been some guy from the future with a first aid and wine kits.

Here you go.... water into wine..... WOW!

Oh, you're suffering from sickness? Open your mouth and close your eyes and pray to God *Tosses in a cough drop* ~ You're cured!!! PRAISE JESUS!!

could have just been some doctor from the future called Jesus (Hey'Zeus)

[Jagged]

Quote by: Cephus Well, you covered the irrational, ridiculous ones at least.

I thought 'irrational' would have to be the core of all 'proofs' of God's existence. Otherwise the proof would undermine faith, and the importance of God would dissapear, correct?

Quote by: voyager God exhists for all of us. As an object of thought, other wise we would not be posting comments if "he" exhisted. If this is a bit hard to understand strech your inagination, it is infinite, sort of like god.

Its utterly pointless to point this out. Then you could say anything actually exists, as an object of thought. You may call it true, but it goes absolutely nowhere.

Quote by: ItsDarts If god is nothing more than an "object of thought" than to worship this "object of thought" is meaningless.

I disagree. Religion helps many people. Period. If people claim their spirituality, great. There still must be a great placebo effect or something, at least.

Quote by: Fonceai No such category.

Dude. Then whats the point of proving things? Do you mean things should just be considered false until proven true?

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Jagged Dude. Then whats the point of proving things? Do you mean things should just be considered false until proven true?

What those 6 links allude to is the following:

That not being able to prove something true does not make it automatically false, or vice versa.

With certain topics, the lack of true proof shows you the false proof. With other topics, it doesn't.

For instance, I'll create a thread called "Methods of Disproving God's Existence" and you'll see that those methods are all equally inconclusive. That doesn't make God automatically real.

[Jagged]

Quote by: Fonceai What those 6 links allude to is the following: That not being able to prove something true does not make it automatically false, or vice versa.

Ok, first way makes sense, but this got to me- whats the vice versa? Being false does not make it automatically unprovable? The contrapositive; If true, then it does make it automatically provable?

Shit, did i get that right? I didnt even know you could have a true statement in which its contrapositive is false.

Anyways, as isherwood and others said, nothing in this topic is provable. Isnt the next best step evidence?

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Jagged but this got to me- whats the vice versa?

Being unable to prove something false does not make it automatically true.

You're right, you can't prove anything about God.

The only rational method of finding evidence is the scientific method.

I honestly think that we don't yet possess the technology to find out the answer. But I think it will be possible, and probably sooner than we think.

I think once we can accurately gauge and measure all forms of energy and we can find out what happens to your "spirit" after you die, we can track where that energy goes and find a way to get there.

Opening that door might answer many more questions... though if we get there and those people ask us about God, we still have the big one.

I really think that the whole point of God isn't about Heaven or Hell... it's about having the free will to come to your own conclusion. If you're faithful to your free will then you're all set.

I also don't think it's right to impose your will on others, especially under the auspices of being smarter or knowing something others don't.

The nature of God, or even of God not existing, should be a subject for sharing and discussion, not an asshat fest of trying to show proof that is ultimately inconclusive.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Pretty good summary of my thought's Fonceai, except for the part about disproving God, it's impossible to disprove something with science that is, by definition, outside the realm of science.

[Fonceai]

Everything is in the realm of science.

The problem is that there are some things science just doesn't explain yet.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Fonceai Everything is in the realm of science. The problem is that there are some things science just doesn't explain yet.

I agree with this.

Even if there is a reality outside of this one, and a creator, and ghosts haunting old cemeteries...

IF those things are true, they should be subject, to the best of our ability, to scientific investigation.

[Fonceai]

Yah. If we can see them then they at least imply some sort of light manipulation.

If only one person can see them, and they are real, then there is other science to consider.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Science is simply man's best guess, we can never know for sure, you put a little too much faith in man's abilities.

If God is creator, then He created all scientific phenomena. He is, if you believe in Him, not scientific.

[Jagged]

Quote by: Fonceai Being unable to prove something false does not make it automatically true. You're right, you can't prove anything about God.

I actually meant it with respect to science, as well. By topic i meant "philosophy and religion" - Its all open ended. You cant prove anything, you can just gather up alot of evidence and interpret it in some way. It may make absolute sense, but isnt it still sort of far from proving?

I think once we can accurately gauge and measure all forms of energy and we can find out what happens to your "spirit" after you die, we can track where that energy goes and find a way to get there.

Um... This seems like a whole new level of speculation. You think spirits act on some sort of frequency or something? I would also imagine the 'trip to the afterlife' to be sort of instantaneous. I mean, heaven etc would have to be in another dimension, correct? To continue the speculation, its not like we would pinpoint this supposed 'energy' you speak of and be like "oh my god! its floating up!"

I really think that the whole point of God isn't about Heaven or Hell... it's about having the free will to come to your own conclusion. If you're faithful to your free will then you're all set. I also don't think it's right to impose your will on others, especially under the auspices of being smarter or knowing something others don't.

Yay.

The nature of God, or even of God not existing, should be a subject for sharing and discussion, not an asshat fest of trying to show proof that is ultimately inconclusive.

Yay.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Science is simply man's best guess, we can never know for sure, you put a little too much faith in man's abilities. If God is creator, then He created all scientific phenomena. He is, if you believe in Him, not scientific.

He is, if you believe in him, the ultimate scientist.