The Christmas Hoax

[Apokalupsis]

Quote by: ByaKya So Jesus wasnt even born on december 25th like most christians believe?

Of course He wasn't. And please support that most Christians believe that Dec 25th is His actual birthday. I don't know of a single one who makes that claim. Instead, every Christian I know understands that we have no clue when He was born, though some speculate it was in the fall or winter, but Christians designate a date to celebrate nonetheless.

looks like more editing of religion to me, i guess it is true, christianity has been so filtered, edited, changed and modified that jesus himself would not call us christians.

Wait...the early Church detracts from pagan festivals by instead celebrating the birth of Jesus during this time, and therefore, Jesus wouldn't call His followers Christians? Brilliant leap of logic there.

[Apokalupsis]

Quote by: Cephus That's pretty much it. The fact is that early Christians specifically chose the Winter Solstice because it was an existing pagan holiday, not because Jesus was born anywhere near December 25th. They did it to sabotage the pagans when they sought to forcibly convert them to Christianity. Christianity converted by the sword, after all.

How does celebrating instead, Jesus' birthday (vs Saturnalia), equate to "conversion by sword" exactly?

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Apokalupsis A pagan holidy was transformed into the Christian holiday.

1) You're admitting that people had holidays at that time of year and that Christianity was looking to take all the credit for them.

2) It moves away from the typical apologist party line of "the early church fathers / apostles were just writing down what they'd seen" and moves towards "Christians were actively looking to change history".

I know, I know... you'll argue that Christians were just trying to deliver the poor godless heathens from their sinful pagan lives by bringing the light of Christ to them, right?

[RickSp]

Quote by: Apokalupsis How does celebrating instead, Jesus' birthday (vs Saturnalia), equate to "conversion by sword" exactly?

The adoption of December 25th as Christmas, piggy-backing on Saturnalia and other Solstice holidays, in 354 AD roughly coincided with Constantine's adoption of Christianity in 313 and it imposition as a state religion by Emperor Theodosius in 380, leading to forced conversions across the length and breadth of the Empire. The sword played a huge role in the spread of Christianity, from Constantine's battlefield vision onward.

[Jack]

We're engaged in one of the more pointless arguments i've ever been a part of.

I would agree, but I remember how vocally christians objected last year to the use of "happy holidays" as opposed to "merry Christmas", how they claimed we were all out to "remove Christ from Christmas". If it isn't that important to you, why all the fuss?

[ByaKya]

They dont know when he was born? Well then. Guess the bible aint all that = )

[Apokalupsis]

Quote by: Zhavric 1) You're admitting that people had holidays at that time of year and that Christianity was looking to take all the credit for them.

No. I explained that the Christians did not participate in pagan festivities. Instead, they celebrated the birth of Jesus. This new celebration caught on and is what is the cause of the celebration at this time of the year. It replaced the pagan celebrations.

2) It moves away from the typical apologist party line of "the early church fathers / apostles were just writing down what they'd seen" and moves towards "Christians were actively looking to change history".

How so? There was nothing to "see" by the time the early Church started the new celebration of Christmas, all had been done by then. Christians were not attempting to change or hide history, but to give themselves a reason to celebrate whilst the rest of the community was celebrating that which Christians would not participate in.

I know, I know... you'll argue that Christians were just trying to deliver the poor godless heathens from their sinful pagan lives by bringing the light of Christ to them, right?

No. See above.

Quote by: RickSp The adoption of December 25th as Christmas, piggy-backing on Saturnalia and other Solstice holidays, in 354 AD roughly coincided with Constantine's adoption of Christianity in 313 and it imposition as a state religion by Emperor Theodosius in 380

Support please.

Quote by: ByaKya They dont know when he was born? Well then. Guess the bible aint all that = )

Why is it important to have the exact date of Jesus' birth? What person from that time period who was born into meager circumstances, had a recorded birth? If anything, it would be suspect if someone like Jesus given his background had a recorded date for His birth.

Let's take someone who was bord almost 600 years after Jesus, Muhammad. What is his birthday? How about another founder of a large religion, Siddhartha Gautama? When was he born? When was Nero born? When was Alexander the Great born? How about Genghis Kahn? All are great men of history with unknown birthdates. Not knowing the exact date of their birth, is irrelevant to the accomplisments that are recognized for.

[RickSp]

Quote by: RickSp The adoption of December 25th as Christmas, piggy-backing on Saturnalia and other Solstice holidays, in 354 AD roughly coincided with Constantine's adoption of Christianity in 313 and it imposition as a state religion by Emperor Theodosius in 380

Quote by: Apokalupsis Support please.

You can't counter the point being made so ask for confirmation of the dates? Amusing if somewhat tedious.

[Apokalupsis]

Not confirmation of dates, confirmation that the adoptation of Dec 25 as Christmas is relevant/related to Constantine's adaptaton of Christianity.

Hey, if it's true, it's true. But surely you aren't suggesting that we just take your word for it right? I mean, it being true and all, surely it's supported by a 3rd party?

If not, isn't it legitimate for me to reply with : Not true. Take my word for it.

?

[RickSp]

OK, for those too lazy to google for themselves.

The earliest reference to the celebration of Christmas is in the Calendar of Filocalus, an illuminated manuscript compiled in Rome in 354

Christmas

The first mention of a Nativity feast appears in the Philocalian calendar, a Roman document from 354 CE, which lists December 25th as the day of Jesus’ birth.

The Real Story of Christmas

Constantine is best remembered in modern times for the Edict of Milan in 313, which fully legalized Christianity in the Empire

Constantine I

Theodosius I is known for making Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire (in 380). In a series of decrees called the "Theodosian decrees" he progressively declared that those Pagan feasts that had not yet been rendered Christian ones were now to be workdays (in 389). Theodosius participated in actions by Christians against major Pagan sites: the destruction of the gigantic Serapeum of Alexandria and its library by a mob in around 392, authorized by Theodosius (extirpium malum) and described in exultant detail by Christian propagandists, was only the most spectacular such occasion (see Brown). The destruction of the greatest temple in Alexandria gave encouragement to Christian vigilantism and mob action in other centers, often spurred on by the local bishops, as early hagiographies proudly relate.

Theodosius I

[Apokalupsis]

OK, now how does that equate to "celebrating Christmas = conversion by sword"? I mean if it was first practiced in 354AD, and it wasn't until around 30 yrs later than Christianity became the official state religion of Rome under Theodosius I, a little longer before making pagan holidays workdays, a few years later before destroying pagan sites... how does this make the case that the celebration of Christmas = conversion by sword?

I mean, thanks for the history lesson, but how about connecting the dots for us here.

Didn't Christmas come to be, before this happened?

[RickSp]

Quote by: Apokalupsis OK, now how does that equate to "celebrating Christmas = conversion by sword"? I mean if it was first practiced in 354AD, and it wasn't until around 30 yrs later than Christianity became the official state religion of Rome under Theodosius I, a little longer before making pagan holidays workdays, a few years later before destroying pagan sites... how does this make the case that the celebration of Christmas = conversion by sword? I mean, thanks for the history lesson, but how about connecting the dots for us here. Didn't Christmas come to be, before this happened?

I knew I shouldn't have bothered. You questioned why Cephus referenced "conversion by the sword". I commented that Constantines' conversion coincided with the celebration of Christmas on the 25th. The Edict of Milan in 313 legalized Christianity in the Empire. The legalization of Christianity allowed the first recorded Roman celebration of Christmas on the 25th in 354.

The beginnings of forced conversions, both of pagan and of perceived Christian heretics especially the Arians, began during Constantine's reign and accelerated during the reign of Theodosius. The dots that you seem unable to connect are that the same events that allowed Christmas to be celebrated in the Roman Empire were the same events that led to the forced conversion of the Empire. Got that? Probably not.

[Apokalupsis]

That doesn't make sense Rick. Because a group of people legalized Christianity (*gasp* the horror of allowing practice of worship!), it allowed the church to celebrate a holiday it started 40 years after the fact, and 30 years after that, forced conversions began, therefore Christmas = conversion by sword?

Too bad there isn't a "worst arguments" thread, eh?

[brien]

Why can't the atheists leave the Christians alone and let them enjoy their beliefs. I am agnostic but I don't even attempt to deny anyone of any religion their religious holidays? What if someone were to do this with regard to Kwanza, or Chunnaka, or Ramadan. This type of behavior is just mean spirited and nasty. I also wonder if it isn't jealousy that motivates others to disparrage anothers religious beliefs. Why not just leave them alone?

I don't believe in any of the religious holidays but it doesn't make me want to spoil another's party. People who do this, perhaps need to get a life of their own.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Apokalupsis That doesn't make sense Rick. Because a group of people legalized Christianity (*gasp* the horror of allowing practice of worship!), it allowed the church to celebrate a holiday it started 40 years after the fact, and 30 years after that, forced conversions began, therefore Christmas = conversion by sword? Too bad there isn't a "worst arguments" thread, eh?

If you can't figure it out that is your issue.

[Apokalupsis]

Quote by: brien Why can't the atheists leave the Christians alone and let them enjoy their beliefs. I am agnostic but I don't even attempt to deny anyone of any religion their religious holidays? What if someone were to do this with regard to Kwanza, or Chunnaka, or Ramadan. This type of behavior is just mean spirited and nasty. I also wonder if it isn't jealousy that motivates others to disparrage anothers religious beliefs. Why not just leave them alone? I don't believe in any of the religious holidays but it doesn't make me want to spoil another's party. People who do this, perhaps need to get a life of their own.

It's a good question, one I've not seen an answer to. However, it should be all people leaving others alone in this regard IMO, not just atheists on Christianity. While most Christians (at least that I know and I'm aware of) do not infringe upon the beliefs of others during their holiday time, some do, the most fundamentalist. It is a shame because I think such "belief" is contrary to Christ's message, showing just how much even adherents of a belief system can "miss the mark" of their founder's message.

But what is interesting about Christmas, is that it is largely commercialized now with much religiosity removed from it. This allows for a greater variety of belief systems to participate in the celebration (agnostics, atheists and others who have a belief system that does not discourage such participation). So the holiday can appeal to a great # of people.

But it seems as if many hardcore atheists and anti-Christians are quick to bash Christmas, even have nativities, trees and other decorations removed from public places, yet they still celebrate Christmas with their families. For a group of people who allegedly despises such a holiday, they certainly do not appear to be consistent when they themselves, enjoy it.

[Apokalupsis]

Quote by: RickSp If you can't figure it out that is your issue.

In psychology, they like to call that "projection". And in this instance, it's also one of illogic and miscommunication.

[Jack]

Quote by: Apokalupsis For a group of people who allegedly despises such a holiday

Most non-believers I know don't "despise" the holidays. They may be opposed to state-sanctioned religious ceremonies and displays, but that's because they favor a separation of church and state, not because they're anti-christmas.

Quote by: brien Why can't the atheists leave the Christians alone and let them enjoy their beliefs.

Most do. As I said above, they may object to the government celebrating a religious holiday, but most of us could care less what individuals believe/celebrate until it infringes on our rights. When christians got all upset last year because so many companies wanted to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", many of us had our say about that foolishness. If anyone took the christ out of christmas, it was the theistic merchants, not the non-believers. We never put christ there in the first place.

[RickSp]

I agree with Ish. Except for on this sort of discussion board I think most atheists do "leave the Christians alone." The Christians often don't show the same courtesy but that is OK, at least most of the time.

What amuses me is why Christians don't get more bent out of shape at the mytholgizing of Santa Claus. The big non-Christian elf with his magic sleigh has almost completely supplanted JC. It mystifies me why the fundamentalists don't go crazy every time one of Tim Allen's stupid Santa Clause movie hits the theaters. Instead, they get pissed off if someone wishes them a Happy Holidays instead of a Merry Christmas.

[brien]

Most do. As I said above, they may object to the government celebrating a religious holiday, but most of us could care less what individuals believe/celebrate until it infringes on our rights. When christians got all upset last year because so many companies wanted to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", many of us had our say about that foolishness. If anyone took the christ out of christmas, it was the theistic merchants, not the non-believers. We never put christ there in the first place

.

I agree 100%