Kantianism

[Jimmy the Pro]

For those of us educated on Kantian Philosophy

let's have a chat about the man, his philosphy, practical and impractical applications and ect.

I am a personal fan of his Categorical Imperative.

[agustine]

To Idmaniac. The Categorical Imperative is an episteme, a theory of knowledge and justified belief whereby someone comes to know a particular ethic a priori. I agree that certain moral absolutes are known a priori, however, Kant did not posit an ontological foundation for certain moral absolutes apart from his pragmatism in the Critique of Practical Reason.

Augustine

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: agustine To Idmaniac. The Categorical Imperative is an episteme, a theory of knowledge and justified belief whereby someone comes to know a particular ethic a priori. I agree that certain moral absolutes are known a priori, however, Kant did not posit an ontological foundation for certain moral absolutes apart from his pragmatism in the Critique of Practical Reason. Augustine

dude i know it's Kant, but we can use regular english.

I understand what ur saying but please normal words people understand

and i'll reply to this more indepth in another post

[Occam]

The categorical imperative requires that one not lie. Take an example:
You are standing on the street. A person you know to be good and gentle runs around the corner, up an alley and hides. An evil bully shows up moments later holding a gun and says, "Where did he go. I'm going to kill him."

You think for a moment and realize that if you say he ran up the street you would be lying, and that would be unethical. Per the Categorical Imperative you must tell the truth. You do so, and the bully finds the person and shoots him dead. While murder is also against the C.I. you have no problem because you didn't do the killing.

Like most commandments, the C.I. sounds great but it's too simplistic to really fit our complex lives.

Occam

[JohnMK]

On the other hand, some of us are quite willing to separate the wheat from the chaff, and avoid throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. Kant's philosophy is not without merit. I suppose one could formulate a universal maxim that one lie when confronted with the above type of situation, but then here you're opening up a whole can of worms. Nevertheless . . . I'm fond of Kant, even recognizing his foibles.

Amongst my favorite quotes by William F. Buckley:

"Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality the cost becomes prohibitive."

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: Occam The categorical imperative requires that one not lie. Take an example: You are standing on the street. A person you know to be good and gentle runs around the corner, up an alley and hides. An evil bully shows up moments later holding a gun and says, "Where did he go. I'm going to kill him." You think for a moment and realize that if you say he ran up the street you would be lying, and that would be unethical. Per the Categorical Imperative you must tell the truth. You do so, and the bully finds the person and shoots him dead. While murder is also against the C.I. you have no problem because you didn't do the killing. Like most commandments, the C.I. sounds great but it's too simplistic to really fit our complex lives. Occam

hmm, im sure you have a problem even though you didnt do the killing. While Kant does not advocate lying. He doesnt tell you what you should do instead.

You make it seem in your post as if there are only two options open to me in the scenario. And that because Kant says I cant do one, I have to do the other, thus Kant is bad. Note that there are often other approaches for me to do, telling him where and calling the cops, telling him and trying to save the person, not telling him (the killer asks where he is, but he doesnt ask me to tell him or show him where). ect.

Unfortunately putting a situation into 2 options in order to show flaws of the categorical imperative ultimately lacks to provide a series of situations and thus can be seen as short sided at best.

[Rave7pt0]

Why not just tell the bad guy that you won't tell him?

Anyway, I like the Transcendental Unity of Apperception a lot, because I really feel that raw reality makes up very little of the world in which we as humans live.

[Athena]

Quote by: Occam The categorical imperative requires that one not lie. Take an example: You are standing on the street. A person you know to be good and gentle runs around the corner, up an alley and hides. An evil bully shows up moments later holding a gun and says, "Where did he go. I'm going to kill him." You think for a moment and realize that if you say he ran up the street you would be lying, and that would be unethical. Per the Categorical Imperative you must tell the truth. You do so, and the bully finds the person and shoots him dead. While murder is also against the C.I. you have no problem because you didn't do the killing. Like most commandments, the C.I. sounds great but it's too simplistic to really fit our complex lives. Occam

Why do you have to answer the question?

[Athena]

Does this Cicero quote apply here?

"True law is right reason in agreement with nature; it is of
universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons
to duty by its commands, and averts from wrong doing by its
prohibitions. And it does not lay its commands or
prohibitions upon good men in vain, though neither have any
effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law,
nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal any part of it, and it
is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed
from its obligations by senate or people, and we need not
look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it.
And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens,
or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal
and unchangeable law will be valued for all nations and all
times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God,
over us all, for he is the author of this law, its
promulgator, and its enforcing judge.
Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying
his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will
suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is
commonly considered punishment."

[Jimmy the Pro]

[quote=Athena;313359]Does this Cicero quote apply here?[/qoute]

I'll break it down, kindof a long qoute.

Quote by: Cicero "True law is right reason in agreement with nature; it is of universal application, unchanging and everlasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrong doing by its prohibitions.

hmmm....true.... um True as in "universally applicable law" then yes, true as in "right or correct" law is kinda harder to distinguish. I assume he means the former.

Quote by: Cicero And it does not lay its commands or prohibitions upon good men in vain, though neither have any effect on the wicked. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to attempt to repeal any part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely.

I agree with this part too, but I will point out that while it may be a sin to violate the true law, that does not mean that we can never do the wrong thing. Many times we disregard or ignore that true law, and I think that should be noted.

Quote by: Cicero We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people, and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valued for all nations and all times, and there will be one master and ruler, that is, God, over us all, for he is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge.

C dog is starting to get a little to "eh....not really" for me. The implications he makes do not hold true in reality. He makes the claims for an ingornant standpoint. Meaning that he cannot expect all people to believe this nor can he expect universal law to imply this.

Quote by: Cicero Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst penalties, even if he escapes what is commonly considered punishment."

This is what I feel an unserving ending for Natural Law. People break it all the time and i am sure these worst penalties really dont affect the people to the fullest extent.

Overall Analysis: Nice quote, good application, dont like the ending part that much.