Afterlife

[einhornchen]

I've read a few times here about an "After-life". Who is it to say that one exists, and the ones following a religion arent living an "After-life" of someone from thousands of years ago?

Can it not be that the whole concept of religion was just a man's way of staying "Alive" through the millenia?

-einhornchen

[Kuldeep]

Not in same body. Soul, if present reincarnates again and again due to immense love for the body and wish to live eternally in this very world. No living creature wants to die (seize to exist at any moment of time). Nature fulfills its deep rooted wish by providing body after body.

However in Hindu mythology, it is said great Saints knew the technique of putting the soul at the center portion of brain, semi-paralysing the body making it non-deteriorating type while; meditating for thousands of years. I do not think it is historically documented anywhere.

[einhornchen]

It's more of the person's ideals passed on, not flesh.

[Zhavric]

Both of you need to provide evidence to support your claims.

[Kuldeep]

Proof is living lady professor (Dr. Tiwari) of my own city, who remembers not one but two of her past lives. Recently her interview was telecasted from one of TV channel.

[Stewbert]

Well, for ages people have been claimed to witness the supernatural. Also, deja vu occurs, possibly leaving someone feeling "supernatural". How can you possibly tell that these memories are from past lives and not just psychological effects? She could have a slight case of dual personality disorder (or whatever you call it). Personally, I've had such experiences of other lives or worlds through dreams and substances but I don't consider them to be from my past life.

[anak]

Quote by: Kuldeep Proof is living lady professor (Dr. Tiwari) of my own city, who remembers not one but two of her past lives. Recently her interview was telecasted from one of TV channel.

i the Hindu religion is correct about reincarnation, then only - and only - the oul traverses from body to body... not memories. memories are only storage, and recollection of the brain in areas such as the hippocampus, the amygdala, or the mammillary bodies. nothing supernatural about that.

read between the lines... she does it for publicity and to feed her ego (although there's nothing wrong with that).

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Kuldeep Proof is living lady professor (Dr. Tiwari) of my own city, who remembers not one but two of her past lives. Recently her interview was telecasted from one of TV channel.

In debate, it's very important to not offer unsupported claims as evidence of more unsupported claims. That is exactly what you've done here. You are now burdened with providing evidence of why we should believe this woman's testimony has merit.

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: Zhavric In debate, it's very important to not offer unsupported claims as evidence of more unsupported claims. That is exactly what you've done here. You are now burdened with providing evidence of why we should believe this woman's testimony has merit.

When dealing with matters of the supernatural most claims are that of personal thought and reflection not as factual claims.

I suppose for the puproses of this thread evidence should be provided to show the practices of the religion are true practices. But it seems rather hard to find evidence of a "belief" or "ideal" seeing as how no such tangible matter will suffice.

Also, consider how controversial bringing up evidence would be. Many disputes of how "correct" or "clear" the evidence is, and we dont want to stray from the actual question now do we?

[Zhavric]

Be very careful here. What you stated above sounds suspiciously like, "We can't provide evidence so we should be excused from the responsibility of providing evidence."

Also, it's important to understand the distinction between claims of the real world and internal claims.

There is absolutely no way I could refute the statement "Reading the bible (NT) makes me feel good."

However, stating, "The bible (NT) is absolutely correct & every word in it actually happened" is a truth-claim about the real world which is demonstrably false.

Theists often attempt to blend the two sorts of claims together. "I feel Jesus, therefor no one can tell me he wasn't real."

It's not much different with other religions such as hinduism or the belief in reincarnation. If I state "I feel X" then it cannot be refuted. If I state "X happened to me" then I should be ready to support that claim.

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: einhornchen Can it not be that the whole concept of religion was just a man's way of staying "Alive" through the millenia?

i like this question, because as a Catholic I ask it all the time.

And my answer is somewhat complicated.

I would first like to point out that if man had constructed it, then he would be living under a hope for another life until he forcebly convinced himself nothing but the afterlife was true. I suppose then if you follow this logic, all those (serious) religious persons have driven themselves mad.

And indeed, this is what many seem to believe, that those religious are living in denial and they just cant except "reality". (Whatever they mean by that)

This is exactly the point i woud like to address, the view of religious living in some world they have foolishly constructed to live forever, vs acception of death.

In essence, this post will talk about how the "unreality" or "denial" exhibited by those religious is a myth. Also it will attempt to disprove that conception.

Let's think about the entirety of the Universe. In the vast majority of space and time, beyond time, past present and future dimensions, ect. Compared to the reality of the Universe (infinity) we have a very limited knowledge of our "reality" as it exists in this universe, in this space, and in this time. Every day we discover new "realities" and "truths" as we broaden our minds and continue learning.

However, we still have much to learn. If one would suggest that we have figured out all of our reality then I would think them immature or irrational. Think about it, you learn new things everyday. If infact they are a part of reality, meaning you found them out in this universe, the congradulations, you now know more about reality.

The point is, to claim that we are apart from reality when the person claiming does not him or herself know the fullest extent is to make a hasty generalization. Could God exist in reality that has not yet been learned. Of course He can! In fact, this is why Christians wait for a second coming of Christ, so Christ can come into reality. Also, we believe that in coming the first time, God did come into reality, and now we live in the reality He has created.

In conclusion, because the universe is so unfathomable and constantly expanding what we know as reality can never fully be tamed. We learn new things everyday and constantly grow in our knowledge of reality. To claim that the religious are not a part of reality is to do so with an ill found knowledge of the entirety of the universe. It would be like claiming that a certain food was bad for you and not knowing the full amounts of ingredients in the food.

Now on the other hand, that is not to say for the religious that they can claim to "know" of God's existence. If those religious take my statements as true, they must claim a "belief" that there is a reality of God out there not yet revealed to us.

It works both ways. Christians cannot claim to "know" that God exists out there just as much as Atheists cannot claim to "konw" the opposite.

I hope this helps

[samsara15]

I like the idea of Reincarnation. However, IMHO, most people memories of past lives are pure BS. Unproven, unprovable. The only possibilty I deem reasonable for a continual transmigration of souls would be in other universes, if such exist. Face it, we can't, so many of us, have been Napoleon or Nefertiti. Or even inconsequential peasants. There simply were not that many people alive then.

[Jagged]

Who is it to say that one does not exist? That pretty much sums up the entire argument.

Quote by: Kuldeep Proof is living lady professor (Dr. Tiwari) of my own city, who remembers not one but two of her past lives. Recently her interview was telecasted from one of TV channel.

Yes. Of course, because if i get a doctor's degree and then claim to have had a real expierience in which an angel came to me saying that all Jews will go to hell it must be true. Getting the T.V. deal sealed the deal, for sure.


One thing i really cant stand about people is that they always claim to 'know' the truth. The first step to go further in arguing about religion is the acceptance that nobody can actually know the absolute truth, as stated above. Therefore an actual truth about life after death can never truly be ascertained. From here, we simply must debate, (using logic,i presume, because there is no other way to debate in a way which can formally be called debating) and just get a close as we possibly can. Its when other's who fail to use or recognize logic as our only way of actual way of getting closer to the truth. Think about it. Arguing one's taught beliefs can never lead closer to the truth; they can only back up previously thought out beliefs which the believer did not conjure. Thus, supporting any non-logical-based religion (as in, taught by parents and passed on and on, i guess, [im still working on a definition of religion]) is only meant to keep the state of what people believe frozen. We already acknowledged that nobody knows the absolute truth, so this frozen state cannot be it, so logic appears to me the only logical way to get close to truth. Did i just use a pointless loophole? damnit, its too late.

[pikatore]

LOL I can have some fun with this.

You know many Scientoligists believe that they have had past lives? Such as being an intergalactic walrus, or some other crazy, crazy story? Yet they believe that it happened? They 'remember' it?

You can quite easily apply this same idea to those who follow religions that teach reincarnation. You believe that reincarnation exists, therefore you believe that you have had past lives, therefore you 'remember' some 'past life' that seemed to come out of nowhere? Therefore... it's true?!

Kuldeep, you will find the mind plays wonderful tricks on us. If anything, religion and 'faith' would be the ultimate example of people taking advantage of the flexibility of the perspective ignorant people may have of reality.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: pikatore Kuldeep, you will find the mind plays wonderful tricks on us. If anything, religion and 'faith' would be the ultimate example of people taking advantage of the flexibility of the perspective ignorant people may have of reality.

No doubt, I have understood what you try to explain and also noted others want evidence of what I said. Many times, on other forums, I gave the full story this Lady Professor. For the present guys, I think I should repeat it as:

She, when about four year old, was travelling with parents (Father an army officer had been on transfer from Hindi belt to Assamese speaking belt) in train. All of a sudden, she started speaking in a language (Assamese) not known to her or her father. Father was surprised and asked local co-passangers what she was saying! They told her father that she is giving her past lifes details of place, family members, her own name, husband name etc. Later on, her father went to place mentioned by the girl and found everything as correct. He believed without any doubt that her daughter did live at that place before. Then, after a gap of about another 10 years, her father was posted in Madya Pradesh (different area than she is presently living). A girl of about 14 years then called at two aged persons by their respective names. They turned with astonishment to her as if asking how she knew their names. Not only that she also told them that they are brothers and she had been their mother giving her name as well. Yes, they confirmed they are really brothers and got confirmed after listing their mothers pet name from the girl. Since then, they always visited the girl's house on their mother's birthday to celebrate with that girl.

The news later has gone from parents to relatives, friends, neighbours, media etc. My friend's wife is collegue of the lady Professor. Majority people living around know about this. Presently, she is Principal of a private college. I do not think, I can provide more evidence than that.:(

Quote by: anak i the Hindu religion is correct about reincarnation, then only - and only - the oul traverses from body to body... not memories. memories are only storage, and recollection of the brain in areas such as the hippocampus, the amygdala, or the mammillary bodies. nothing supernatural about that. read between the lines... she does it for publicity and to feed her ego (although there's nothing wrong with that).

Your decisive conclusion that memory does not pass on from one life to other is as fictious as your saying that only soul traverses.

I did neither believe in soul nor memory passing till I met the lady in question inperson. But after meeting her I believe in both. :)

[pikatore]

Well get her to speak some more Assamese to you, and then we will talk.

This 'proof' you have that caused you to believe was based on hearsay. Similar to someone thinking they saw a ufo, taking (or doctoring) a picture, and becoming famous because of it. Consider the other possible reasons as to why this all happened:

a) Shes a big fat liar
b) Her father is very superstitious and blew it all out of proportion
c) Nothing actually happened, but relatives spread it like a rumor and got it to the media

Funny how you your faith is based purely on what someone else told you, and that 'evidence' they provided. Its double funny how you cannot produce any such proof when called upon.

Give me proof, not stories, right now, that proves that people can live past lives. If it is true, it shouldnt be too hard to find evidence.

[Kuldeep]

I have nothing to comment on your doubt. Yes, I would like to point out that when you have decided not to believe even the lady or the persons who had first hand information about detail narrated by the person...who can then help you to know reality about reincarnation or life after death?

Conclusively, I would also like to point out that proof for reincarnation cannot be as reproducable scientific experiment or mathematical identity. The reason is nature has purposfully kept it a mistery!!! Just imagine, if we invented a method for knowing everybody's past 100 lives, howmuch confusion would be created. Normal social structure of world would get upset. Everybody would go mad with confusion....it would be a full choas!!!! Rest, you are wise enough to understand the consequence of the method and proof you are wishing to have.:)

[samsara15]

I once read somewhere that in all of human history, there had been 100 billion people. The present population of Earth is around 6 billion. Obviously, even if the classical interpretation of Reincarnation is true, not everyone who ever lived is alive now, because 100 billion is a lot more than 6 billion. There're simply not enough bodies to go around.

I find Reincarnation a tempting solution, but my only answer to that mathematical problem is to guess that maybe we might get Reincarnated into other universes, rather than this one.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Kuldeep Conclusively, I would also like to point out that proof for reincarnation cannot be as reproducable scientific experiment or mathematical identity. The reason is nature has purposfully kept it a mistery!!! Just imagine, if we invented a method for knowing everybody's past 100 lives, howmuch confusion would be created. Normal social structure of world would get upset. Everybody would go mad with confusion....it would be a full choas!!!! Rest, you are wise enough to understand the consequence of the method and proof you are wishing to have.:)

the consequence? nature purposefully kept it a secret so we didnt get confused???

if reincarnation existed, then by now we wouldnt be confused, because we would have dealt with it from the dawn of time.

personifying nature and giving a reaosn that implies that nature itself is sentient means that you believe in a higher power, which means that this is truly a debate of faith, something that has no substance.

oh yeah, and samsara gave the point on the numbers problem. where are all these extra souls appearing from? your answer, probably another universe, or they spawned from the Great <insert name of deity> here, cause he or she felt like a bit of fun and threw some more souls into the mix. flawed logic there, too many unknowns.

my argument has more logic and factual evidence, therefore i am more likely to be right, considering the ridiculously low chance of what you are saying in light of evidence. faith is all good and wonderful, but unfortunately at the end of the day, no matter who you talk to, no matter what you are told, faith is just faith. if there is no tangible evidence to support it (other than hearsay), then it has no foundation in an argument.

[Jack]

Perhaps Multiple Personality Disorder explains reincarnation. Several people had to share the same body due to a shortage of hosts currently alive.

What the hell, it makes as much sense as anything else otherworldly I've heard about.