God had help

[Lullaby Chainer]

For creation to exist.. cause and effect must exist. Logic must also exist.

God could not create cause and effect, or logic, because they are required for creation.

Existence, or God, was designed before God even started.

I'm, of course, assuming a god exists.

[Jakob]

You're assuming God exists in the universe. Supernatural litterally means exceeding the natural. The universe is the natural, God exist outside it, in our Supernatural. (You could say that we are God's subnatural).

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Jakob You're assuming God exists in the universe. Supernatural litterally means exceeding the natural. The universe is the natural, God exist outside it, in our Supernatural. (You could say that we are God's subnatural).

Then we cannot say God created us. It doesn't matter what realm, creation is the act of creating and that requires cause and effect.

[Castle]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Existence, or God, was designed before God even started.

What do you mean by "designed"? God has always, of course, had certain characteristics. I'm not sure where you're going with that, though.

[luke virtual kh]

Quote by: Jakob You're assuming God exists in the universe. Supernatural litterally means exceeding the natural. The universe is the natural, God exist outside it, in our Supernatural. (You could say that we are God's subnatural).

Which (supernatural being) amounts to what exactly?
...zilcho?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Castle What do you mean by "designed"? God has always, of course, had certain characteristics. I'm not sure where you're going with that, though.

Why has he always had these characteristics? Any other characteristic could be created by God himself. Yet, he must start off as a creature of cause and effect OR in a realm of cause and effect.

Let's think of God as a care bear.

There is a heart on care-bear-God's tummy. With this heart he can create anything and do anything.

As you've probably guessed, this heart is cause and effect.

Do you not find it strange that a being that is ascribed the originator of all with no greater forces in existence.. has characteristics that he COULDN'T have given himself?

The universe was designed with cause and effect BEFORE God started designing. Perhaps this is because cause and effect are eternal just as God is eternal.

Could be, but then existence was still designed with cause and effect BEFORE God could even START designing.

[Amuse]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer For creation to exist.. cause and effect must exist. Logic must also exist. God could not create cause and effect, or logic, because they are required for creation. Existence, or God, was designed before God even started. I'm, of course, assuming a god exists.

Its more like "For creation to exist.. consciousness must exist" No-thing exists before thought. Thought is- "God" as you put it but Creator is more appropriate. The term "Creator" doesn't assign male or female attributes to "God" nor does it suggest human ego traits and is in my mind the essence of "God". Cause and effect is a subjective observation based in linear thinking. Cause, in linear thinking, is "the beginning" and effect is " the result" or in some cases "the end" "The beginning" is desired, "the end" is not always desired.
If you, Lullaby, have a thought, it exists only as formless energy until you manifest it into physical being. An example might be...You think "it will be fun to go to Disneyland", that is a knowing but only when you go and experience it physically does that knowing become awareness. When the knowing become awareness that is evolution. That makes you a creator. We are individual aspects of "God" experiencing that which we have created.

[Castle]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Why has he always had these characteristics?

Meaningless question. We cannot ascribe reason to the start of existence.

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Could be, but then existence was still designed with cause and effect BEFORE God could even START designing.

Sure. Logic existed before God did anything, as did causality.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Castle Meaningless question. We cannot ascribe reason to the start of existence.

Yet, you just did. Start of existence entails cause and effect.

Quote by: Castle Sure. Logic existed before God did anything, as did causality.

Yes, which entails design beyond God.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Amuse Its more like "For creation to exist.. consciousness must exist" No-thing exists before thought. Thought is- "God" as you put it but Creator is more appropriate. The term "Creator" doesn't assign male or female attributes to "God" nor does it suggest human ego traits and is in my mind the essence of "God". Cause and effect is a subjective observation based in linear thinking. Cause, in linear thinking, is "the beginning" and effect is " the result" or in some cases "the end" "The beginning" is desired, "the end" is not always desired.

Causality is not a mere attribute of the mind.

Quote by: Amuse If you, Lullaby, have a thought, it exists only as formless energy until you manifest it into physical being.

It exists in neurons in my brain, chemical coordinated series stored in my brain.

Quote by: Amuse An example might be...You think "it will be fun to go to Disneyland", that is a knowing but only when you go and experience it physically does that knowing become awareness. When the knowing become awareness that is evolution. That makes you a creator. We are individual aspects of "God" experiencing that which we have created.

What's your point? You're thinking too small for this topic. It has nothing to do with what you've just said.

[Castle]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Yet, you just did. Start of existence entails cause and effect.

Rephrase my statement to "we cannot reason about the cause for the starting conditions of existence". This is because, by definition, they can have no cause. There can be nothing before them to be a cause.

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Yes, which entails design beyond God.

See above.

[The Architect]

What if god ( assuming there is a god) used his god-like powers to create our universe from the outside.
Just a thought

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: The Architect What if god ( assuming there is a god) used his god-like powers to create our universe from the outside. Just a thought

Doesn't change anything. How did he create our universe without cause and effect?

[Jack]

Of course god had help. There was the carpenter, Jesus and a holy ghost (I'm not sure how much help a ghost is, but I suppose it could at least have helped with writing the bible, providing it was a ghost writer). Then there were all those angels. I bet they weren't just standing around watching. God didn't put up with laziness. That's why later he told his people not to worship idles.

[Dirty Name]

Congratulations. You've discovered arguments that date back to medieval times.

Thomas Aquinas' 'Five Ways'

:rolleyes:

[The Architect]

How did he create our universe without cause and effect?

What if god was the cause. Think of dominos, when all lined up you push one and they all fall, so what if god pushed the first domino that triggered our universe.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: The Architect What if god was the cause. Think of dominos, when all lined up you push one and they all fall, so what if god pushed the first domino that triggered our universe.

That would still mean God has attributes that he himself could not create or give himself.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Dirty Name Congratulations. You've discovered arguments that date back to medieval times. Thomas Aquinas' 'Five Ways' :rolleyes:

Actually, no. This is completely different. Please be productive to this debate.

[The Architect]

That would still mean God has attributes that he himself could not create or give himself.

So you mean that god, in what ever universe/dimension is in had help from some outside force? If so then it just shows god had to have had help.

[samsara15]

What is all this 'He'? If there is a God, why not feminine, or sexless, or hermaphoditic?

The Hindu assumption is that the universe emanates from Brahman, rather than being created.

Thought does not exist. Does it? How would you prove it exists? If it does exist, then there are things outside of provablity that exist. If that is true, why discuss at all, because logic is over-ruled by simple existence?

Based on Godel, no logical system can be both true and self-consistent, can it? I'm never quite sure what Godel said. Look up Symbolic Logic, I can't quite figure it out.

Didn't David Hume shoot holes in cause-effect?