God had help

[Jack]

What about mind, thought emotions etc.

The results of the interactions of the parts of the brain. Still physical in origin. Humans have interpreted them to be something beyond what they are.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Rainbow Look back in Mankind's history. Those guys thought they knew everything as well, in that time. It may appear we are mistaken (as they were then), today.

So would that make thesis more intellegent for maintaining thier beliefs over such a long period of time in history, or ignorant for unwilling to part with that belief even in the face of an utter lack of evidence?

i may be mistaken in my beliefs, but im willing to wager that you (if you are a theist) wouldnt be anywhere closer to the mark.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: pikatore So would that make thesis more intellegent for maintaining thier beliefs over such a long period of time in history, or ignorant for unwilling to part with that belief even in the face of an utter lack of evidence? i may be mistaken in my beliefs, but im willing to wager that you (if you are a theist) wouldnt be anywhere closer to the mark.

That is not quite the sense of my expression(s) and I do not even try to question others' beliefs or non-beliefs.

The core for the subject is :
- who created God

I used the very first atom's creation as an example, that there Must be a Creator, since the very first atom was not in a position to create itself (!)
Whether people call that Creator : God, Mind, etc. that is yet another subject.

I only wonder scientists' stance, since they know very well the atom's structure. Some of scientists avoid a definitive answer on that particular subject. Some of them even go beyond, claiming they are Atheists.
Regardless of their religious or non-religious platform, but they can Not accept a concept that the very first atom has manifested its presence as a result of Self-Creation (!)
If "yes", then our Science and Technology is pile of absurdal assertions, what prompts some basic questions that would contradict with fundaments for Physics, Mathematics, Chemistry, etc.

Stating that the Universe represents infinitive environment, seem to rather point at quite weird assumption, since the balance Must be upkept within that Universe.
If "not", we should never die and the world we live-in may resemble a sort of Perpetum Mobile :-)
Therefore, there Must be yet another Universe (unknown to us, today), in order to upkeep the balance for the Universe we live-in. Otherwise, the Universe we live-in ceases its existence.

Use the atom structure as the pattern, this world has emerged and manifests its presence upon.
Example : Moon rotating and/or evolving planet Earth.
That is exactly that state of balance. And THAT must apply to ALL the elements within the Universe we live-in, and to - unknown to us, today - yet another Universe that upkeeps the balance for the Universe we live-in, as well.
That is that very first atom's structure and/or mechanism, that applies to ALL the elements within the Environment we live-in.

Lullaby Chainer asks a question, I am afraid Mankind is not up to the taskto even approach in order to answer to it.
The sub-topic : God.
All I know, God must exist, regardless of religious or non-religious approach.
Who or What is God ?
No idea, except for some images within my mind. I think God's power goes uncompareable far beyond Mankind's intellectual capabilities. There is nothing mystical with it, but rather inability to comprehend that.
I think that God is a living organism, fabric, substance, matter that is capable of manifesting its presence to us in Any form It wishes.
A sort of Mind beyond our ability to understand it.

How people percieve God ?
That is a subject for upbringing a child, and it points at parents and/or guardians. Education is yet another factor, as well.

The main topic : who created God ?
No clue.

P.S. I
I use form Creator/God/Mind etc., guys to have an option to use their own expression.

[pikatore]

I would be even more dishonest to participate in this thread using a concept that does not touch on my beliefs. The premise of this thread is that there is a god to begin with, but im perfectly within my boundaries to point out inconsistencies and use them for a wider argument. because in the end, its ALL about who believes in what. you wouldnt dare question others beliefs? wonderful. i do.

all this debate is doing is trying to explain some humdrum religious concept in a scientific light, thats why problems are erupting all over the place.

who created god? why the hell does there have to be a who or what to begin with? why does there have to be a god to begin with? why do we reason that because we are here, some sentient being had to create us?

maybe we humans are so damn ignorant/arrogant, we think we can explain away something like the creation of this plane of existence by making up some dude who went abracadabra. we have shown a similar lack of understanding of our world by seeing lightning and saying 'oh Zeus is throwing thunderbolts from his fluffy throne'.

all im saying is think out of your square, theists, and realise that you only know so much, loads more than the creators of your religion. why continue thier traditions?

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Pikatore who created god? why the hell does there have to be a who or what to begin with? why does there have to be a god to begin with? why do we reason that because we are here, some sentient being had to create us?

Exactly that is my point as well!!!

Why not to consider all that we could prove scientifically in universe plus that which remains still a mistery exist eternally with no begininging and end with NO role of so called God to play!!!!!

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer For creation to exist.. cause and effect must exist. Logic must also exist. God could not create cause and effect, or logic, because they are required for creation. Existence, or God, was designed before God even started. I'm, of course, assuming a god exists.

Well, when we say "existence," we means existence of the universe i.e. existence of objects. So, cause-and-effect, logic, etc. are relations among objects and not objects per se. Within the set of all possible objects God could have created, operating, of course, within the belief that God exists, there are defined relationships among the objects; any deviation from these relationships may be considered an anomaly.

Still, anomalies are possible according to quantum physics, i.e. the replacement of deterministic causality with probabilistic behavior, but quantum physics doesn't necessarily lead us to reject the concept of God the Creator. Of course, He could have created that probabilistic system.

So, God didn't have to have help.

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: Kuldeep Atom is physical system for that you want to know its cause/source of existence. What about mind, thought emotions etc. Please agree something exist beyond physical...what nobody can explain, under anybody has first hand realization.

There are various interpretations. Some have attributed mystical experiences, for instances, to mere activity within the brain's limbic system. Others have said it's much more than that i.e. more than physical. Ultimately, we all have explanations for it, but from a more unbiased perspective, we don't absolutely know which explanation is correct, if any.

[Kuldeep]

All right !! God exists as assumed in OP and whatever exists in the Universe are IT'S properties both physical and meta-physical. This assumption would lead us to conclusion God never needed any help since nothing was ever created. Everything existed eternally !!!:)

[pikatore]

And hence, it all boils down to one word, one concept.

Spaghetti.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: pikatore I would be even more dishonest to participate in this thread using a concept that does not touch on my beliefs. The premise of this thread is that there is a god to begin with, but im perfectly within my boundaries to point out inconsistencies and use them for a wider argument. because in the end, its ALL about who believes in what. you wouldnt dare question others beliefs? wonderful. i do. all this debate is doing is trying to explain some humdrum religious concept in a scientific light, thats why problems are erupting all over the place. who created god? why the hell does there have to be a who or what to begin with? why does there have to be a god to begin with? why do we reason that because we are here, some sentient being had to create us? maybe we humans are so damn ignorant/arrogant, we think we can explain away something like the creation of this plane of existence by making up some dude who went abracadabra. we have shown a similar lack of understanding of our world by seeing lightning and saying 'oh Zeus is throwing thunderbolts from his fluffy throne'. all im saying is think out of your square, theists, and realise that you only know so much, loads more than the creators of your religion. why continue thier traditions?

#1, #2
There is not much about Anybody's beliefs, but : Physics, Mathematics, Chemistry, etc. Science, generally.

#3, #4
Replace and/or abolish Science.
That would solve all the issues.

#5
No idea on subjects you are attempting to raise.
What traditions ?
See all the points above.

Try (at least) to understand, that :
- Whoever created the first atom is the Creator/God/Mind, etc.
- process of friction would Never take place, unless there are 2 (at least !) atoms present
- Evolution is the result of friction.
- there Must be yet another Universe, in order to upkeep the balance for the world We live-in (ie. nucleus, electrons)

Yet you wonder whether God exists ?
Are you suggesting that the first atom has created itself ? :-)
If "yes", by what means ? Since when "no value" is (cap)able of creating "a value" ? (ie. 0+0+0+0+ ---> = 1 ; is that what you try to promote ? )

There is not much of beliefs, but basics for Science, like physics, mathematics, chemistry, etc.
Whoever created that first atom is Creator/God/Mind, etc. regardless of Anybody's beliefs.
Feel free to polemize.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Rainbow (ie. 0+0+0+0+ ---> = 1 ; is that what you try to promote ? ) There is not much of beliefs, but basics for Science, like physics, mathematics, chemistry, etc. Whoever created that first atom is Creator/God/Mind, etc. regardless of Anybody's beliefs. Feel free to polemize.

No Creation / Creator business as you understand as human. But, is it just not possible the whole thing (multi-universes might be existing out there) existed eternally??????????

Name this whole thing as God whose property is the whole thing. This way we would get rid of many problems like searching God, faiths & beliefs, religion fights etc. We could devote more time in understanding basics for Science, like physics, mathematics, chemistry, etc.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Kuldeep No Creation / Creator business as you understand as human. But, is it just not possible the whole thing (multi-universes might be existing out there) existed eternally?????????? Name this whole thing as God whose property is the whole thing. This way we would get rid of many problems like searching God, faiths & beliefs, religion fights etc. We could devote more time in understanding basics for Science, like physics, mathematics, chemistry, etc.

#1
We - Humans base our developements and/or eventual progress on the way we percieve the world and/or environment around.
Nevertheless, We - Humans have neither created the environment we live-in, nor ourselves, except for residing within it (and inflicting damages to ourselves, mostly :-) ).

However, I think that the Universe we live-in has limits, too.
Whether the eternity takes place and/or is a form of existence, I have some reservations on that subject.

#2
I think that Homo Sapiens' nature is to seek its roots (read : Genesis) and/or unknown. Therefore, it would work against ourselves to remove that drive.

I agree we should spend much more time for scientific research. That effort would make more aggressive progress needed so badly for all of us.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Rainbow However, I think that the Universe we live-in has limits, too. Whether the eternity takes place and/or is a form of existence, I have some reservations on that subject..

Universe is infinite I say based on recent scientfic findings according to which universe is expanding with a positive acceleration. So naturally with type of expansion it would approach infinity only.

Regarding eternity I say since no scientific explanationhas been found about its begining or end. Even BB has been put to question due the effexct of positive acceleration.

However you are free to have reservation but that also should be based on some reasoning.

I think that Homo Sapiens' nature is to seek its roots (read : Genesis) and/or unknown. Therefore, it would work against ourselves to remove that drive. I agree we should spend much more time for scientific research. That effort would make more aggressive progress needed so badly for all of us

I fully agree with this statement of yours. Our inquisitive nature of mind won't stop thinking for the root of the cause of each and everything. I would only add better to have constructive thinking only.