God had help

[pikatore]

Quote by: The Architect What if god was the cause. Think of dominos, when all lined up you push one and they all fall, so what if god pushed the first domino that triggered our universe.

Who created the finger?

For a god to create this universe, it would have had to understand the concepts of cause and effect and and logic beforehand.

Instead of thinking of creation as a cause, think of it as an effect. What created the events that we call creation? hmm??? if it is indeed a god, it would have to be subject to the laws of cause and effect to influence a cause and effect. Which means, it wouldnt make sense for this god to be simply a cause in itself. You cannot cause yourself, you cant just wink into existence for no reason. Which means, there is cause to have this god exist, and exert a cause which created the universe. A paradox occurs. Since as many of you say, God is THE CREATOR, and ANY argument otherwise would be incorrect as this god isnt subject to the very concepts that it knew beforehand to create a plane of existence that followed them, it is a fruitless debate, as we would have to argue in an illogical fashion to convince you otherwise. Which isnt a thing i do too often.

[The Architect]

When you think about all the possible solutions they create paradoxs, we will never know the true answer.

[pikatore]

Quote by: The Architect When you think about all the possible solutions they create paradoxs, we will never know the true answer.

So it isnt open for debate??

Instead of excercising simple blind faith, we can reason and try to deduce the most logically sound and reasonable explanation for things. Religion tries to achieve this, except it forgets the 'reasonable' bit.

[Jagged]

Quote by: Mr. Blue Sky he made existence so he made the rules of existence and the rules of creating existence.

So... i thought God had to exist for him to be there to create any concept... including existence. This argument also seems faulty in that you are using the concepts of Cause and Effect / Logic to explain things that occurred well before you say the concept of Cause and Effect or Logic existed.

The literal concept of Logic is needed to debate anything, including the beginnings of the concept of logic. Nobody can possibly argue when or how the concept of Logic came into existence (or what there was before Logic), because the need for the creation of logic requires logic. If logic was created/came into existence at a certain point, in time or space or any dimension i guess, it is impossible to discern how or why it happened. The further paucity of any referral to what there was before Logic in any ancient text or modern religion also means that nobody can really hold a viewpoint on it for illogical reasons, such as your mommy telling you. Arguing about the existence of Logic is thus utterly pointless in all respects, and for the sake of debate (this is a debate forum, right?) we should assume either 1. Logic has existed forever or 2. Logic has not indeed existed forever but what was before it cannot be determined. Personally, i think assumption 1 is a tad stronger in that there is simply no reason for Logic to not exist, and it remains completely unimaginable to think of any universe, or anything, without logic. But then again Logic is required to make that statement so its void. We're only human, just dont go that far back.

[The Architect]

So it isnt open for debate??

It is, im saying that when you come up with logical solutions it creates paradoxs. That dosnt mean its not up for debate.

Instead of excercising simple blind faith

In what? God?

[pikatore]

Quote by: The Architect It is, im saying that when you come up with logical solutions it creates paradoxs. That dosnt mean its not up for debate.

Good. let the debate continue.

Quote by: The Architect In what? God?

In everything, though faith in a god is a very appropriate example.

[Kuldeep]

Thisway, the debate would never end! :(

God created Infinite Universe then who created the God? O.K. God 1 created God, God 2 created God 1, God 3 created God 2. God 4 created God 3-------> infinity + Infinite Universe = Infinite Universe !!!!!Therefore, no separate God of any form is possible to exist.

So finally conclusion of the debate is that The Infinite Universe itself should be considered enternally existing ultimate GOD!!!!!! having infinite properties perfectly balancing and successfully conducting trillions of events all around:eek:

[pikatore]

Quote by: Kuldeep So finally conclusion of the debate is that The Infinite Universe itself should be considered enternally existing ultimate GOD!!!!!! having infinite properties perfectly balancing and successfully conducting trillions of events all around:eek:

You call the concept of infinity what you like, but im not going to call it god. i'm going to call it infinity.

[Yusuf]

Peace

I'm afraid the human mind has been rendered entirely incapable of understanding the nature of the Divine for the Divine is entirely transcendant. (Talk about cause and effect).

If you concede that God is incorporeal then you can but recant your cause and effect proposition. ["I Am What I Am"]

Regards

[prejudged_Fire]

The bible states that God had no beginning, nor will He have an end. This is hard for anyone (especially the Science-minded, which I am) to wrap their minds around. However, we are but mere humans so we can't possibly (or even try for that matter) to come close to concept the idea that he was infinitely always there before the universe was created.

[Jack]

we are but mere humans

As opposed to...? We are humans, period. We have the ability to think, reason (though we don't avail ourselves of those abilities often enough) and imagine. Look what a good job we did imagining the gods. None of them have qualities that aren't present in us. There isn't a single specific quality ascribed to god that we can't see in the world around us or in us.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer For creation to exist.. cause and effect must exist. Logic must also exist. God could not create cause and effect, or logic, because they are required for creation. Existence, or God, was designed before God even started. I'm, of course, assuming a god exists.

It not necessarily needs to be the way you present along with reasoning, but I understand your view which seems to be the core for the Universe.

We do not know what was the intention of the Creator/God/Mind.
We guess it, backing up our concepts by known-to-ourselves ways of logic, anlysis, determination, perception, etc. Thus, we would like to.

I believe that there are unknown - to us, today - technologies awaiting to be developed by/for Mankind. Whether that progress will give us some crucial answers, I do not know that, but I hope it brings us closer to that issue.

The main point is :
- is no-matter capable of creating a matter, in the world live in ?

Even what physics stands for that this Universe would not exist without process of friction. No doubt in my mind, the very first atom has Not created itself, not to mention the following ones in order friction to take place, what would ignite the process of evolution, with eventual progressive outcomes, etc. and Homo Sapiens as many others (among).

Manipulate and/or compile a data yourself, then :-)
I have no answer.

[pikatore]

Quote by: prejudged_Fire The bible states that God had no beginning, nor will He have an end. This is hard for anyone (especially the Science-minded, which I am) to wrap their minds around. However, we are but mere humans so we can't possibly (or even try for that matter) to come close to concept the idea that he was infinitely always there before the universe was created.

And it seems for now at least that that's all it will ever be. An idea.

The bible states many things. That doesn't mean that they are all true. The credibility of an ancient document as opposed to modern, live assertations? I choose the latter.

[pikatore]

Quote by: Rainbow The main point is : - is no-matter capable of creating a matter, in the world live in ?

No. You cannot have something from nothing. That, however, does not in any way mean that a) that universe came from nothing OR b) a sentient being created the universe.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: pikatore No. You cannot have something from nothing. That, however, does not in any way mean that a) that universe came from nothing OR b) a sentient being created the universe.

I understand you based your answer following the fundamental notions for physics and mathematics, at least.

Look back in Mankind's history.
Those guys thought they knew everything as well, in that time.
It may appear we are mistaken (as they were then), today.

[Kuldeep]

You might be correct, Rainbow!!!

I believe you with confidence!

To add to your area of thinking, I am translating the verse spoken by a Kashmiri greatest mystic lady of her time 'Lallishwari" who had evolved herself by yogic practices to the stage of supreme self of consciuosness and shown a number of miracles to public that time, as back as some 650 years.

The Verse she spoke in wanderness, leaving her married life, translates in English as:

I have been asking my Guru (teacher) thousands of times,

What is the name of the thing, which is called by no name!

By asking , asking & asking, I was tired and was about to faint,

From nothing and nothing only came out something!!!

(supreme consciousness, probably she meant which she did not disclose
in the verse)

Science may be able to find out that stage of self some day concievable to our present senses!!!! Who tell at present????? :)

[Fangrim]

....

So Lullaby.

You're saying that because God would have required cause and effect to create the universe, it's some kind of weird-contradiction thing, having to do with God having to create his own characteristic, which itself is not possible without already having the characteristic.
Fair enough.

However, let's make a different assumption: There is no God.
How does the universe start? How do any of its characteristics arise? Because, ZOMG, they would require cause and effect and, ZOMG, the characteristic of cause and effect requires (zomg)...cause and effect.
What does God have anything to do with this anyway. You're just shooting yourself in the foot by requiring the universe to need a seperated designer that is not constrained by the (zomg) need for cause and effect to be caused.
Nice job.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Fangrim .... So Lullaby. You're saying that because God would have required cause and effect to create the universe, it's some kind of weird-contradiction thing, having to do with God having to create his own characteristic, which itself is not possible without already having the characteristic. Fair enough. However, let's make a different assumption: There is no God. How does the universe start? How do any of its characteristics arise? Because, ZOMG, they would require cause and effect and, ZOMG, the characteristic of cause and effect requires (zomg)...cause and effect. What does God have anything to do with this anyway. You're just shooting yourself in the foot by requiring the universe to need a seperated designer that is not constrained by the (zomg) need for cause and effect to be caused. Nice job.

What the hell? This topic assumes God exists. Do not spam. Do not go off-topic. Do not hi-jack threads. Thank you.

Also, to appease your derailment, there is no law by science that anything at all was created. It IS, however, a Christian claim that nothing created God and that he created everything. It is also a Christian claim that there is nothing higher than God. Make sense? Good. These are assumptions made obvious in the thread, dear. Now understand the OP and come back later.. but try not to deface the assumptions of this thread to satisfy your zomg-spasms.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer there is no law by science that anything at all was created. It IS, however, a Christian claim that nothing created God and that he created everything. It is also a Christian claim that there is nothing higher than God. Make sense? Good. These are assumptions made obvious in the thread

I never heard, read, was told, etc. that nothing had created God.

You know very well, that atom is built of nucleus and electron(s).
What or Who created and/or developed that atom's structure, not to mention that atom itself ?
What was the purpose of creating following atoms there after, in order a friciton process to take place ?
Was it done on a purpose, or unintentionally ?
We do not know the answers, today.

Every matter in the world we live-in has its own and unique goal, task, etc. to be completed, finalized, etc. even with unknown (today) to us results.
Those ones we can not define, excersize our grey-cells in search for the answer. Try not to skip the moment of creation, going directly to the process of friction as a start-point, instead. Regardless of evolution process, a friction is Not the source for creation but mere outcome, only.
Neither scientific nor theological approach is going to provide us with the answer : the very first atom creation.

Assuming that Creative Body exists : Creator/God/Mind has done it
Assuming that Creative Bodies does not exist : Whatever/Whoever has done it
, and it rather seems to point to onomastics instead, since the very first atom has Not created itself (!)
(If "yes", by what means ? )
Therefore, in order to find the answer, religous or non-religious approach is irrelevant.

I like all these Religion vs Science "debates".
A doze of mystery resides within almost every statement, what makes me laugh (especially to underline his/her strong intergration within particular groups, societies, communities, etc. she/he seems to be affiliated with, as a "bullet-proof argument" in order to support his/her stance : a piteous performance after all, in reality).

And the subject :
- the very first atom
And the answer :
- the very first atom has Not created itself

Who is God ? No clue.
All I know that Creator/God/Mind must exist, since the world we live-in has not created itself. (Any means, if you want to polemize, please.)
Yet you ask, who/what created God ? Cause ? Etc. ?

(I would rather ask the question for the purpose of deliberately creating that particular structure of atom, in the first place, to upkeep that atom's balance, in order that atom to manifest its presence in the world we live-in, instead (!)
Otherwise, that atom fails to register its existence.)

[Kuldeep]

Atom is physical system for that you want to know its cause/source of existence. What about mind, thought emotions etc. Please agree something exist beyond physical...what nobody can explain, under anybody has first hand realization.