God had help

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: samsara15 What is all this 'He'? If there is a God, why not feminine, or sexless, or hermaphoditic?

Who the hell cares? The Bible says their god is a He, and in this particular thread I'm referring to all gods but specifically God because I know most about the Christian god and his/her/its attributes.

Quote by: samsara Thought does not exist. Does it? How would you prove it exists? If it does exist, then there are things outside of provablity that exist. If that is true, why discuss at all, because logic is over-ruled by simple existence?

Why are you telling me this? Please explain how this is relevant.

[rez]

Why not just say "What created God?"

[samsara15]

Let's bring this debate into the 21st century. Hume and Kant happened. Let's get post-modern, if we can.

People are saying God thought the universe into existence. That is why it is revelant. How does anything think something into existence, if thought is purely internal?

People were saying we were repeating medieval arguments. We were.

[Jagged]

No i actually think its a good point. Believers in God's creation and such must have believed in cause and effect, but it seemed they couldnt find a cause. Its actually a pretty good argument.

How does anything think something into existence, if thought is purely internal?

We are obviously living within God's brain. See those nebulas? those are other brain-cells, and the sun is probably some nucleus.

[samsara15]

That's what the Hindus say, that the universe is an emanation from the brain of Brahman. One of Brahman's dreams. Dreams that last trillions of years. Pretty good, for primitive people to have conceived of such a vast expanse of time. Still not enough time, by many powers of ten, but good. Try a googoplex of years, and then you're getting in the right time range. Or beginning to.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: rez Why not just say "What created God?"

Because it's important to realize that even if you argue "oh, but God is infinite" you must notice attributes of God and his internal realm, that God himself could not give himself.

[Geneticist]

Logic is a way of thinking and cause/effect is not a self-existent entity, but merely a description of how things occur. It is meaningless to say that either one has an existence before God. Logic and cause/effect only exist in a world where something exists. If we assume God to exist, then Logic and cause/effect exist simultaneously because He exists and has always existed.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Geneticist Logic and cause/effect only exist in a world where something exists. If we assume God to exist, then Logic and cause/effect exist simultaneously because He exists and has always existed.

Ok, granted, we assume God exists.

Then logic and cause and effect exists simultaneously?

This makes no sense. Please elaborate.

No, "Logic and cause/effect only exist in a world where something exists," does not support your claim. If you need me to explain why it doesn't, just let me know.

[rez]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer For creation to exist.. cause and effect must exist. Logic must also exist. God could not create cause and effect, or logic, because they are required for creation. Existence, or God, was designed before God even started. I'm, of course, assuming a god exists.

Duh! God is not bound by cause and effect - he makes the rules!

something must of created god(s).

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: rez Duh! God is not bound by cause and effect - he makes the rules! something must of created god(s).

-.- Then how did he create a rule with the rule he created?

[rez]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer -.- Then how did he create a rule with the rule he created?

god just exists.
god was never created.
god was just always there.

[Geneticist]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer This makes no sense. Please elaborate. No, "Logic and cause/effect only exist in a world where something exists," does not support your claim. If you need me to explain why it doesn't, just let me know.

Its commonsense...your argument is the one that doesnt make sense to me.

Cause and Effect merely describes an aspect of this world. They are actions. For example, if I flip a light switch (action) this is the cause. The effect of which is that a light is turned on (another action). Cause and effect is merely a way to describe the sequence and result of actions and for this reason they can only exist if there is already something existing which is capable of action. The existence of something capable of action precedes the action, so it is that existence precedes cause. If we assume God, then He is eternal and the one thing that has always existed. That makes Him the first cause as well, the first entity which is capable of cause. Cause and effect exist because God exist, they are the result of God and so it cannot be said that they precede God.

Logic refers to a formal thought process. Ultimately it is based on contradiction. That which contradicts itself negates itself and thus non-existent, the rest proceeds from this. Its nothing more than a tool to describe and come to conclusions about reality, either something exists or it doesnt, either something is true or it is not, and so on. So lets use this tool called logic for one second.

Since there is existence, that means something must always have existed. Something does not come from absolute nothing. So there must be something eternal. Assuming God is to assume the characteristics that make Him God. Characteristics such as being eternal...and so forth. As God is eternal then He has always existed. Therefore it is illogical to claim that logic precedes Him as there is no "prior" existence in which God has not existed. He has always been and always will, just as logic always has and always will because something exists. God and logic therefore exist simultaneously.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: rez god just exists. god was never created. god was just always there.

No, you're running back to THAT question again. Keep up with the debate. Refer back to the OP if you need to.

[rez]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer No, you're running back to THAT question again. Keep up with the debate. Refer back to the OP if you need to.

You are saying god does not exist...

First came god, then rules, and then creation. However, how did

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Geneticist Cause and Effect merely describes an aspect of this world. They are actions. For example, if I flip a light switch (action) this is the cause. The effect of which is that a light is turned on (another action). Cause and effect is merely a way to describe the sequence and result of actions and for this reason they can only exist if there is already something existing which is capable of action. The existence of something capable of action precedes the action, so it is that existence precedes cause.

Capable of action? You've just jumped gaps and came to the same starting point. 'Capable of action' is already assuming that cause and effect exists. O.o

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: rez You are saying god does not exist...

No I'm not. Why the hell would you think that? And why do you think that gives you the option to go off topic?

Granted, I AM an Atheist.

[rez]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer No I'm not. Why the hell would you think that? And why do you think that gives you the option to go off topic? Granted, I AM an Atheist.

First came god, then rules, and then creation. Rules had to exist before god, therefore, god must of been created.

Seems thats your point in this thread....

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer For creation to exist.. cause and effect must exist. Logic must also exist. God could not create cause and effect, or logic, because they are required for creation. Existence, or God, was designed before God even started. I'm, of course, assuming a god exists.

If god exists, he existed before creation, because he made it. logic and cause and effect could have not existed with god, because god isn't existence, he's god. so he could have created cause and effect and logic with the rest of creation.

[Geneticist]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Capable of action? You've just jumped gaps and came to the same starting point. 'Capable of action' is already assuming that cause and effect exists.

Listen, if there is absolutely no existence then cause/effect and logic are nonexistent as they are meaningless. You cannot talk about a cause and its effect if nothing exists. You cannot presume logic if there is nothing to apply it to or anything which can apply it. Both of these concepts exist only because there is something that exist which they can be applied to.

Assuming God you assume His characteristics, that He is the first, the first in existence and eternal in that existence. Before Him there is nothing tangible in existence, disregarding the fact that it is meaningless to think of something prior to a being which has always existed. Therefore logic and cause/effect have existed simultaneously with God, not before Him.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: rez First came god, then rules, and then creation. Rules had to exist before god, therefore, god must of been created. Seems thats your point in this thread....

That can be concluded, sure. That isn't the point. Some of us still won't recognize that God has attributes that he couldn't have given himself.