Evils of Religion

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Zhavric Assigning blame is beyond the universe of discourse. Please stay on-topic.

You're avoiding the question.

It is absolutely relevant to this.

Where you place the blame determines what you think is evil.

If you blame the person who committed the act, then the person is evil and their motivation is subject to interpretation by the person.

If you blame the motivation then it is basically saying that people who kill for religious reasons are innocent and that the religion should be put on trial.

What I find amusing is that you think Christianity encourages intolerance, yet I see good things done all the time by people who are doing so because they are being "good Christians".

They help the sick and the poor because that's what Jesus would have done. They treat others, even none Christians, with respect and kindness because it's what a good Christian does.

If religion were evil then no good act would ever be done in its name.

The fact that duality exists disproves that religion is evil.

Since the topic of this thread is "Evils or Religion", then I would be 100% correct to say, then, that the only evil of religion is the malignancy of those who use it to commit evil.

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Check the Miscellaneous section for the Special Debate.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai You're avoiding the question. It is absolutely relevant to this. Where you place the blame determines what you think is evil. If you blame the person who committed the act, then the person is evil and their motivation is subject to interpretation by the person. If you blame the motivation then it is basically saying that people who kill for religious reasons are innocent and that the religion should be put on trial. What I find amusing is that you think Christianity encourages intolerance, yet I see good things done all the time by people who are doing so because they are being "good Christians". They help the sick and the poor because that's what Jesus would have done. They treat others, even none Christians, with respect and kindness because it's what a good Christian does. If religion were evil then no good act would ever be done in its name. The fact that duality exists disproves that religion is evil.

Please look past the propaganda. Any institution which gets people to believe that non-existent entities are keeping tabs on them isn't a good one. People can be generous and giving without having to delude themselves, Fonceai. They can treat people as they'd want to be treated without thinking there's some melodramatic cosmic ending.

What would you say to a person who told you, "I'm giving to charity because my imaginary friend told me to"? I'd much prefer to hear "I'm giving to charity because it's a helpful and good thing to do."

Since the topic of this thread is "Evils or Religion", then I would be 100% correct to say, then, that the only evil of religion is the malignancy of those who use it to commit evil.

I see. Then you'd agree that Nazi-ism, with it's calls to execute Jews, is inherently... what? Good? Neutral? It advocates harmful acts so therefor it's fine with you, right?

[Fonceai]

"Nazi-ism" as you call it is nothing but principles on a piece of paper.

A person who decides to follow them and slaughter Jews is evil. Principles on paper don't convince anyone of anything.

If you want to talk Apt Pupil in regards to this subject, then that is an example of an already evil person influencing another person to commit evil.

Again, a person, not the principles.

[Castle]

Quote by: Fonceai Religion doesn't cause action, it motivates a person to act.

:eek: I'm very very scared now.
Those phrases are synonomous. To say that "it cause an action (of a person)" and that "it motivates a person (to do an action)" are precisely the same thing.

Quote by: Fonceai Since religion can be a motivator for both good and evil actions, sometimes the exact same line of scripture or principle, even, you cannot call religion evil.

I can if and only if the effects of the bad actions that are motivated (we'll use your vocab if you want; they mean precisely the same thing) by religion outweigh the effects of the good ones.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Perhaps Fonce worded that wrong, he meant to say that Religion gives us a reason to be violent. If you haven't noticed, we use just about everything to excuse violence. We appear, as a species, to enjoy violence.

Because something causes or even does bad does not make it evil. That would make the human race, as a whole, evil.

[Jack]

That would make the human race, as a whole, evil.

Precisely the stance of christianity.

[Gods_Mercenary]

You can't counter my argument so you come back with an illogical and irrelevent statement, interesting tactic.

Christianity is the belief that the human race is essentialy good, good enough for God to try and save through becoming human, in Jesus, and providing an example for us.

try again

[Castle]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Because something causes or even does bad does not make it evil

You have some serious definitional issues. How are you defining evil again? Because in my world, that which does bad is evil.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary That would make the human race, as a whole, evil.

Does the human race do more net harm then good? Then the human race is evil.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Christianity is the belief that the human race is essentialy good

That is patently false. Christianity's main position is that everyone is evil and needs to be redeemed for their sins lest they are condemned to Hell. Or is God sending good people to Hell?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Try reeding Genesis, man "It is good". Something created by God cannot be evil. Granted, their are evil people, these people need to be saved, but, on the whole, most people would do good anyway.

Evil is to be devoid of Good, Good is not to be devoid of bad, otherwise, there would be no good people.

[Castle]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Something created by God cannot be evil.

You mean like Satan? Or Hitler? Or serial killers? It would seem God has a very...creative definition of good, no?

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Something created by God cannot be evil.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Granted, their are evil people

Wow. Don't contradict yourself, please. It looks bad.

Oh, and retract one of those two statements, please.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary most people would do good anyway.

So God is sending good people to Hell?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Humans, and Satan (although he's more of an abstract idea ) choose evil, but are not completely evil. They made themselves contaminated by evil by choosing sin (That is evil). I said they could have been saved, there is some good in them.

By evil people I meant those who choose evil.

Since when is God sending most people to Hell?

[Castle]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Humans, and Satan (although he's more of an abstract idea ) choose evil, but are not completely evil.

They're either evil or not. If they are not, God is evil for putting them in Hell. If they are, you argument is rebutted.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Since when is God sending most people to Hell?

It'd be the whole "Everyone who isn't Christian (and the right type at that) goes to Hell" thing.

[Athena]

Quote by: Fonceai @Athena First of all, I completely understand your viewpoint and it is one of the major reasons that I am opposed to organized religion. At its core, it doesn't make people good. It encourages good behavior by offering reward. That's awesome. I like the Virtues Project because it addresses morality and ethics without putting a religious spin on things. I think if Jesus were alive today, at least the Jesus that I think is at the core of corruptly represented Christian teachings, he would never go to church and would be all about love, kindness, justice, and service. Bad on her. Her and her church peers. I think she fails to understand the point that I will make below... Personally, I don't blame the religions as much as the practitioners. This is the point most fail to understand and that I mentioned above: I think nearly every religion attempts to instill the very same virtues that the Virtues Project addresses. I think they are all about love, kindness, justice, and service. My opinion about religion is reflected in the movie Dogma. I think Jesus was around to preach about a really great idea and that some people latched on to that and used it to bring about evil. Now organized religion is organized by men, who have propensity for evil. But in my years of studying various religious ideologies, I have found that they all circle the concept of those four virtues. I think it's mankind that f**ked it up, so I blame mankind, and not the moral of some very inspiring stories. So to you, Athena, I don't suggest you take to heart the Gospels of Jesus Christ and blah blah blah blah blah. I also don't suggest you abandon the possibility of God. Instead, I might suggest, ever so politely, to check out little shows like Veggie Tales or children's versions of religious texts. I found that without the doom and gloom, they really do return to the greater subtext of those messages. The mythology related to God that goes with it just gives the suggestion that God him/herself likes it when we play nice. But is it necessary to do that in order to understand or better appreciate those virtues? Not at all!!! That's the beauty of free will. I think the Virtues Project is the same as the message behind the Jesus fables, minus the religious crap.

I do allow for the possibility of God. I just don't think it is the God of Abraham. I think there are other spiritual writings that are better than the bible.

I am quite sure it is necessary to teach the virtues. I am blown away by how the Virtues Project explanation of the virtues improves my understanding of them. Each explanation includes what I get out of applying the virtue to my life and the reward is immediate and completely independent of a God figure. Just like sticking our finger in a light socket results in immediate punishment, completely independent of a God figure.

When we understand the cause and effect of what we think, say and do, we choose to do the right thing, because that is what will get good results. Doing the wrong thing gets bad results. We don't need a concept of God. Just good logic.

The Virtues Project improves my understanding of how things work and how to think of a virtue. This learning, or bible studies, or reading Bhagavad-Gita or Greek mythology, etc. is essential to understanding. Before we have aquired such understanding, it could be said we live in sin. Not because of a woman named Eve, but because we just don't know any better. We are not born knowing. We only have the potential to learn.

[Athena]

Quote by: Castle They're either evil or not. If they are not, God is evil for putting them in Hell. If they are, you argument is rebutted. It'd be the whole "Everyone who isn't Christian (and the right type at that) goes to Hell" thing.

Human beings are not evil, but may do things we call evil. It is built into our nature to what pleasure and acceptence, and we do things with good intentions. When we do evil, something has gone wrong, because it is not built into our nature to be destructive. We are designed to good as a clock is designed to measure time. When either fails to do what it is designed to do, something has gone wrong.

What I believe is the foundation of democracy and is opposed to the religious idea that we are born in sin by some magical power of what a woman ate.

The difference has everything to do with the idea if someone does wrong, should correct or punish? Our justice system isn't working because of the focus on punishing.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I suppose I agree with you there

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Castle They're either evil or not. If they are not, God is evil for putting them in Hell. If they are, you argument is rebutted..

No, People cannot be created evil, they choose evil. Sin makes you evil.

Quote by: Castle It'd be the whole "Everyone who isn't Christian (and the right type at that) goes to Hell" thing.

I don't believe in that, not a fundementalist Christian

[Castle]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary No, People cannot be created evil, they choose evil. Sin makes you evil.

Alright, fair enough. So why, if we're all so good, does everyone sin?

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I don't believe in that, not a fundementalist Christian

Could've sworn that was Christian doctrine:
1) Everyone sins (Romans 3:23)
2) Sinners go to Hell (Romans 6:23)
3) The only way to be redeemed is through Jesus (John 15:5-6)

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Castle Alright, fair enough. So why, if we're all so good, does everyone sin?)

Sin's pretty attractive, no?

Quote by: Castle Could've sworn that was Christian doctrine: 1) Everyone sins (Romans 3:23) 2) Sinners go to Hell (Romans 6:23) 3) The only way to be redeemed is through Jesus (John 15:5-6)

Sinners who aren't sorry for their sins go to hell

Through Jesus could mean simply through God/good, meaning everyone who does good goes to heaven.

Granted, this is coming from a Catholic.

[Castle]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Sin's pretty attractive, no?

So we're all good because we're created by God, but every single one of us must invariably fall prey to the desire to sin and do evil? Maybe it's just me, but that seems just a tad problematic.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Sinners who aren't sorry for their sins go to hell

Support? Biblically, that is? (that repentence gets you out of Hell)

[Gods_Mercenary]

God, alright I'm not going to search the Bible (It's upstairs, I think), but ask any Christian, Jesus himself says something like, repent and you'll be saved on more than one occasion.

Anyway, I think that a greater Atheist mind than you would have hit up on that a while ago.

Plus I'm a Catholic, we have a nasty habit of going extra-Bible on ya