Evils of Religion

[Gods_Mercenary]

Oh, and atheism in this century alone only has to answer for:
Stalinist purges,
Maoist mass killings,
and, arguably the systematic murder of over 6 million jews and countless other undesirables

Shall I go on?

and I'll argue that some of this was done in the name of atheism specifically.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Oh, and atheism in this century alone only has to answer for: Stalinist purges, Maoist mass killings, and, arguably the systematic murder of over 6 million jews and countless other undesirables Shall I go on? and I'll argue that some of this was done in the name of atheism specifically.

Christians had a distinct hand in a lot of this violence in Europe, but nonetheless the words religion, non-religion or atheism should be used as a scape goat for the violence in the world. Just plain old human nature is quite capable of this with any help.

[Fonceai]

Precisely.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I agree also, we made religion violent, not the other way around.

[Castle]

Quote by: Fonceai How does a religion "cause" me to do anything?

Not you specifically, I'm sure. But others. Examples: The Inquisition. Or witch-burnings. Or the crusades.

Quote by: Fonceai You're basically acknowledging then that atheism is evil?

If there have been people that have cited atheism as a cause for evil actions, then atheism is, to some degree, evil (because this adds to atheism's "evilness"). Whether this is mitigated or not by good actions caused by atheism is questionable (and I doubt it, frankly); if it is, then atheism is netly good.

Quote by: Fonceai Since it's "the important point" then tell me... are either of those evil?

Not sure. I don't have enough information to weigh the positive and negative effects of each.

Quote by: Fonceai You don't think they are, regardless of if they are cited as a reason for evil action, right?

Wrong. Although I, personally, have never heard of someone going on mass murdering sprees in the name of Newton's Law of Gravitation. I would welcome being proven wrong though.

Quote by: Fonceai If something can't perform evil, how can it be evil?

Because it causes evil. That which contributes (netly) to evil in the world is evil, whether by action or cause. Hitler is responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews, even if he didn't personally kill them, because he caused them to be killed.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Oh, and atheism in this century alone only has to answer for: Stalinist purges, Maoist mass killings, and, arguably the systematic murder of over 6 million jews and countless other undesirables

How did atheism cause any of those? (And no, the fact that they were done by atheists (except the last one; no clue where that came from:eek:) doesn't mean that they were caused by atheism. Atheism actually has to be a reason for why those things occurred) Certainly, none of them were done in the name of atheism or anything.

Oh, and none of that "in this century alone" bull. Atheism hasn't done anything at all, good or bad, in any other century. It hasn't been powerful enough.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Castle Not you specifically, I'm sure. But others. Examples: The Inquisition. Or witch-burnings. Or the crusades.

That's avoiding the question.

How does religion cause anyone to do anything?

Quote by: Castle Hitler is responsible for the deaths of 6 million Jews, even if he didn't personally kill them, because he caused them to be killed.

You chose the wrong example.

You just cited that a person is the cause.

Why not blame Hitler's ideology and say he's just an innocent follower?

The reason is because it was him, and not some ideology, that literally caused death.

[Castle]

Quote by: Fonceai How does religion cause anyone to do anything?

Are you seriously suggesting that the Inquisition was not caused by religion? It was religious persecution. It was caused by a desire to make the heretics repent.

Quote by: Fonceai Why not blame Hitler's ideology and say he's just an innocent follower?

Did Hitler have an ideology that made him do what he did? I was kind of under the impression that he was just scapegoating others to blame for Germany's fall. But if so, I can blame both. There's enough blame to spread around:)

[another day]

How does religion cause anyone to do anything?

How does crack cause crackheads to break into houses and steal things to support their habit?

It's motivation...STRONG motivation. When a believer believes that their eternal fate is on the line (however wrong and twisted their beliefs may be) they can be made to do anything.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: another day Wrong and twisted beliefs !!!!

Wrong and twisted beliefs (words) are important to note!! Otherwise, to my mind, no pious religion should/could preach sinful action as the base. Yes, it is unfortunate that in history as well as presently, many wrong actions are being done in the name of religions.:(

The wise point and trillion dollar question is to think about as to "How it can be checked now and also for furture time to come Past is past can not be un-done. But, present and future could be saved!!!!!:)

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Castle Are you seriously suggesting that the Inquisition was not caused by religion? It was religious persecution. It was caused by a desire to make the heretics repent.

The Inquisition was caused by people.

What you are desperately trying to prove is not possible.

However this...

Quote by: another day Are you seriously suggesting that the Inquisition was not caused by religion? It was religious persecution. It was caused by a desire to make the heretics repent.

Is absolutely correct.

Religion doesn't cause action, it motivates a person to act.

That is not a cause.

As we've all heard at one point or another in our lives:

"If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?"

Your friends don't cause you to jump, they motivate you.

So, Castle, you dug yourself the hole and here's what you find at the bottom:

Since religion can be a motivator for both good and evil actions, sometimes the exact same line of scripture or principle, even, you cannot call religion evil.

[Zhavric]

"The NRA says 'guns don't kill people. PEOPLE kill people'. But I think we can all agree that the gun helps."

-Eddy Izzard, Dress to Kill

Religion doesn't cause action, it motivates a person to act.

You state this as though it absolves religion of any wrongdoing. It does not. Much of religion (Christianity in particular) is propaganda that is meant to advance specific actions many of which are horrific such as persecution of gays.

It's not unlike the thread about Islam: when individuals commit heinous acts in the name of religion are they doing this BECAUSE of their doctrines or in SPITE of their doctrines? Clearly, the inquisition was working within biblical doctrine. Both the old and new testament very clearly condemn gays as sinners.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Z Clearly, the inquisition was working within biblical doctrine.

The Inquisition was working within an interpretation of Biblical doctrine.

And since the Bible itself is prone to fault because it was also written by humans, it was based on the interpretation of another human's interpretation, and so on ad nauseum.

Using the gun quote is incorrect.

The gun was a tool. Infidelity on behalf of the spouse is the motivation, for example.

The wronged spouse killing their unfaithful counterpart isn't blamed on the infidelity. It's only a quirk of faulty legal systems that lets the infidelity be the criminal. In reality, a person committed an evil act. You don't say the infidelity was the cause. It was the motivation.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai The Inquisition was working within an interpretation of Biblical doctrine.

Toe-MATE-oh / tah-MOT-oh. They were given a propaganda that actively condemns specific behavior.

And since the Bible itself is prone to fault because it was also written by humans, it was based on the interpretation of another human's interpretation, and so on ad nauseum.

The bible, itself, is a type of propaganda with a doctrinal axe to grind against those deemed "sinners". It also STRONGLY encourages individuals to act a certain way.

Using the gun quote is incorrect.

Using the gun quote was funny.

The gun was a tool. Infidelity on behalf of the spouse is the motivation, for example.

This is a horrible example, but I'll humor you. In this example, religion / Christianity is the friend yelling in the ear of the betrayed husband "Kill that bit** and her lover or you're not a real man." The inquisition simply read "deal with heretics or god won't love you".

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Z This is a horrible example, but I'll humor you. In this example, religion / Christianity is the friend yelling in the ear of the betrayed husband "Kill that bit** and her lover or you're not a real man." The inquisition simply read "deal with heretics or god won't love you".

It's a good example, and you also make a good point about the nature of religion and how it applies to it.

"not a real man" and "God won't love you" or motivators for weak people.

"My friend told me to do it" is hardly a realistic defense for murder, because as we all learned when we were kids you still have a choice.

I agree that religion is very sexy propaganda. It promises eternal paradise for basically just being a nice person. I think that's a big selling point.

But it doesn't make religion evil. It makes people who cite religion as their reason for action nothing more than mindless sheep. What a coincidence that priests often call people "their flock".

That's why I don't think religion is evil. Sure it might endorse evil acts, but a human being is always capable of choice. Not making one is a fault of that person or some other person in their life; not the religious doctrine.

[Zhavric]

That's why I don't think religion is evil. Sure it might endorse evil acts,

If religion endorses harmful / evil / malicious acts then it's harmful / evil / malicious. Period.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Z If religion endorses harmful / evil / malicious acts then it's harmful / evil / malicious. Period.

So then do you believe that the cause is to blame, and not the person who made a choice to commit an "evil" act?

[Athena]

Quote by: Z This is a horrible example, but I'll humor you. In this example, religion / Christianity is the friend yelling in the ear of the betrayed husband "Kill that bit** and her lover or you're not a real man." The inquisition simply read "deal with heretics or god won't love you".

I want to argue this point. I read a fascinating book about dueling. When we accepted dueling, it maintained a high degree of morality. Throwing stones at an adultress or otherwise killing this person, maintains the morality that determines adultry is wrong. So it is not about being manly, but about maintaining morality. Same as spanking a child to correct wrongful behavior. Being permissive is not helpful to the children, nor is it helpful to the community at large.

[Athena]

"I agree that religion is very sexy propaganda. It promises eternal paradise for basically just being a nice person. I think that's a big selling point".

I want to argue this point. If Christianity did as much to make us good people as, Kuldeep's spiritual view, I could not object so strongly to Christianity. Problem with Christians is they are not compelled to be nice or good people. They are self righteous and this often leads to them being very not nice people.

For about 8 weeks I have been attending Virtue Project meetings that have been very enlightening. I feel like I am really on the path to being a better person. And then, this one nice young lady, brings her religious concern that, because the Bahia's are associated with the Virtues Project it is Satan in disguise, and her church peers have advised her to stay away from the program. For the first time in 8 weeks, feelings were terrible and we are all still feeling divided and threatened. What a horrorible belief this woman and her church peers have, and the fruits of it are damaging, like poisonous polution of fear and hate being dumped into our pool of living waters.

I strongly dislike the quality of the religions that worship the God of Abraham, because they are divicive, and promote unjustified self rightousness, ignorance and superstition. Christians are repeating the error of the pharasees, and why the Jews have been pursecuted throughout history. The Sunnis and Shia are having this same problem with religious "authority" and humans who think they can have it and are commanded by God act on their religious authority. But look how Kuldeep responds. I love the way he responds to these disputes, even when he corrects me.

[Fonceai]

@Athena

First of all, I completely understand your viewpoint and it is one of the major reasons that I am opposed to organized religion.

Quote by: Athena If Christianity did was as much to make us good people

At its core, it doesn't make people good. It encourages good behavior by offering reward.

Quote by: Athena For about 8 weeks I have been attending Virtue Project meetings that have been very enlightening. I feel like I am really on the path to being a better person.

That's awesome. I like the Virtues Project because it addresses morality and ethics without putting a religious spin on things. I think if Jesus were alive today, at least the Jesus that I think is at the core of corruptly represented Christian teachings, he would never go to church and would be all about love, kindness, justice, and service.

Quote by: Athena And then, this one nice young lady, brings her religious concern

Bad on her. Her and her church peers. I think she fails to understand the point that I will make below...

Quote by: Athena I strongly dislike the quality of the religions that worship the God of Abraham, because they are divicive, and promote unjustified self rightousness, ignorance and superstition.

Personally, I don't blame the religions as much as the practitioners.

This is the point most fail to understand and that I mentioned above:

I think nearly every religion attempts to instill the very same virtues that the Virtues Project addresses. I think they are all about love, kindness, justice, and service.

My opinion about religion is reflected in the movie Dogma. I think Jesus was around to preach about a really great idea and that some people latched on to that and used it to bring about evil.

Now organized religion is organized by men, who have propensity for evil.

But in my years of studying various religious ideologies, I have found that they all circle the concept of those four virtues. I think it's mankind that f**ked it up, so I blame mankind, and not the moral of some very inspiring stories.

So to you, Athena, I don't suggest you take to heart the Gospels of Jesus Christ and blah blah blah blah blah.

I also don't suggest you abandon the possibility of God.

Instead, I might suggest, ever so politely, to check out little shows like Veggie Tales or children's versions of religious texts. I found that without the doom and gloom, they really do return to the greater subtext of those messages. The mythology related to God that goes with it just gives the suggestion that God him/herself likes it when we play nice.

But is it necessary to do that in order to understand or better appreciate those virtues? Not at all!!! That's the beauty of free will.

I think the Virtues Project is the same as the message behind the Jesus fables, minus the religious crap.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai So then do you believe that the cause is to blame, and not the person who made a choice to commit an "evil" act?

Assigning blame is beyond the universe of discourse. Please stay on-topic. The big religions of the world (Christianity especially) is a type of propaganda that encourages intolerance and can be easily used to swing the will of the "faithful" into doing things they wouldn't normally do.