Evils of Religion

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Castle So what wars have been fought over non-religious moral systems?

The Cold War, for one. Vietnam War. Those two good enough?

[Athena]

Quote by: Fonceai The Cold War, for one. Vietnam War. Those two good enough?

We added God to the Pledge of Alligence because of the cold war. A lot was made out of the fact that those communist opposed religion. And wasn't Vietnam about stopping communism? Supporting Israel was about competing with the USSR for Israel. Yes, religion was tied to these hot and cold wars.

[Fonceai]

Communism doesn't oppose religion. It works quite well with Eastern religions, none of which are about screwing with those who don't agree with your religious ideology.

How was the Cold War about religion?

[Castle]

Quote by: Fonceai The Cold War, for one. Vietnam War.

Those aren't really moral systems per se, at least not how we generally think of them. They also aren't really replacements to religion. Wars over politics are fought in addition to wars over religion, not instead of them.

[Fonceai]

Were those two wars fought over non-religious moral systems?

Yes.

Your question was answered, thus showing the religion does not cause all wars.

[Castle]

Quote by: Fonceai Were those two wars fought over non-religious moral systems? Yes.

Not moral systems in the same sense as religions. So no. You're equivocating. How about a system of morals (i.e. ethics), rather than a political system?

Quote by: Fonceai Your question was answered, thus showing the religion does not cause all wars.

That was not the claim.

[Fonceai]

I grow tired of your inability to maintain focus...

Fonceai The religions have nothing to do with the actual cause of the war. They are just the pigeon-holing shortcut names that the opposing sides use to represent the morals and ethics on which they are basing their argument. Castle So what wars have been fought over non-religious moral systems? Fonceai The Cold War, for one. Vietnam War.

They weren't religious.

I proved my point.

What were you saying about equivocating?

Lemme clue you in one something... the wider the generalization, the greater the number of exceptions. Since someone was foolish enough to say that religion is the cause of wars, all you have to do is show that one war had nothing to do with religion, or as your specified, non-religious morality.

How about the Trojan War?

In both history and fiction, that war had nothing to do with religion.

It's as though you're so eager to disagree you don't think.

I, on the other hand, am eager to point out the single exception that collapses shaky reasoning.

[Castle]

Do you understand what a moral system is? Do you understand what I mean when I say "a war fought over a moral system"? Do you see how political ideologies don't qualify as moral systems?

[Fonceai]

They most definitely do.

Laws are nothing more than a system of conditions and punishments based on the morality of the government itself.

In some political ideologies, abusing women is not only legal but required in some instances.

In others, it's considered forbidden.

Using just the example of treatment of women, how can you say political ideologies aren't moral systems?

[Athena]

Hold on fellows. Religion is evil when it makes thinking duelistic, us verses them, good verses evil, right verses wrong, black or white. The universe is interacting forces, and want we do effects all of us. The past effects the present. We need to think multipilictically and wholistically.

[Athena]

Quote by: Fonceai They most definitely do. Laws are nothing more than a system of conditions and punishments based on the morality of the government itself. In some political ideologies, abusing women is not only legal but required in some instances. In others, it's considered forbidden. Using just the example of treatment of women, how can you say political ideologies aren't moral systems?

There are universal laws. Only our understanding of them is different.

[Fonceai]

Where can I learn these universal laws?

Are they in a book somewhere?

Posted on a bulletin board lost in a basement somewhere in Alpha Centauri? (nods to the Adams fans)

There are no laws other than those we make for ourselves versus the laws of society.

[Athena]

Quote by: Castle Do you understand what a moral system is? Do you understand what I mean when I say "a war fought over a moral system"? Do you see how political ideologies don't qualify as moral systems?

Ah, democracy is a political ideology and it is all about morals. Socialism and communism are also about morals. Why would you say political ideologies and not about morals? Philosophy is about morals and these philosophical ideas become political ideology.

It seems almost everyone skipped over we added God to the Pledge of Alligance when we entered the cold war, because communist of the USSR took a philosophical stand against religion, for the same reasons I have said religion comes with evils.

[Athena]

Quote by: Fonceai Where can I learn these universal laws? Are they in a book somewhere? Posted on a bulletin board lost in a basement somewhere in Alpha Centauri? (nods to the Adams fans) There are no laws other than those we make for ourselves versus the laws of society.

Education should help us understand universal truth and justice. How is it determined? The scientific method is useful and so is discussion. However, we must keep in mind our understanding is limited, and therefore, our understanding of universal laws may change. That is why democracy is transcendent. The object of democracy is to understand univeral truths and justice, and those who attempt this, realize how understanding changes as we continue the pursuit. It is a totally awesome concept. So much better than religion.

It goes like this, reason, is the controling force of universe made manifest in speech.
We use our reason to understand things and use to speech to explain our reasoning. This capcity of speech and therefore reason, is what makes us as the gods. As we reason it so we manifest it.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Athena Education should help us understand universal truth and justice.

Which class is it I should have attended that teaches me "universal truth and justice."

Truth and Justice are both subjective terms when it comes to morality and ethics.

This is all stemming from me writing that when someone here wrote that religion is responsible for all wars, they had their head up their proverbial ass.

Religion is an idea. If someone takes that idea and makes it into something evil, and someone takes that idea and makes it into something good, then clearly the idea itself isn't evil, or else good would not be possible.

[Castle]

Quote by: Fonceai Laws are nothing more than a system of conditions and punishments based on the morality of the government itself.

You gave an example of political ideologies (i.e. systems of government), not laws. Don't try to red herring your way out here.

Quote by: Fonceai Using just the example of treatment of women, how can you say political ideologies aren't moral systems?

Because democracy and communism don't say anything about treatment of women. They are not moral codes in the same sense that, say, Christianity is a moral code. They don't dictate how individuals should live their lives.

Quote by: Ahtena Ah, democracy is a political ideology and it is all about morals. Socialism and communism are also about morals.

"Nuh-uh" is not debate. You need to give a reason for disagreement, not just disagree.

Quote by: Athena The object of democracy is to understand univeral truths and justice

No. The goal of democracy is to have a government run by the people. Anything else is just something you made up.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Castle You gave an example of political ideologies (i.e. systems of government), not laws. Don't try to red herring your way out here.

It's not a red herring; I was just expecting more thought.

A political ideology is defined by its laws and the extent and nature of how they govern you life. Political ideologies are all about laws.

Now that you know that, go back and re-evaluate.

Quote by: Castle Because democracy and communism don't say anything about treatment of women. They are not moral codes in the same sense that, say, Christianity is a moral code. They don't dictate how individuals should live their lives.

Political ideologies are based on a foundation moral ethic. Be it Dictatorship where one person is above all others, or Communism where all are equal regardless. That's part of a moral foundation.

Castle, I wrote it once before; you suck at this. You demand someone give a single example to support their claim, and when they do so you dissect the example and lose sight of the point.

To gently take you by the chin and refocus you on the real issue, it's that religion is in now way evil. A religion that praises anal rape and child sacrifice is not evil. Evil is attributed to conscious and sentient behavior.

A lion isn't evil for killing a baby zebra. But a person is evil for their actions.

You want to say that because the person cites religion as their reason, then religion is evil. That's an ignorant and illogical conclusion.

I could just as easily kill dozens of people and cite that because I'm an atheist there is no eternal punishment. Therefore I can kill without fear of Hell and fulfill my need to wonder what it's like to see people bleed, cry, die, whatever.

Anything can be cited as a reason, which means that logically everything would have to be evil.

If you want religion to be evil, then everything is evil.

Really, though, religion means nothing. People are evil.

[Castle]

Quote by: Fonceai A political ideology is defined by its laws and the extent and nature of how they govern you life.

Perhaps I need to be clearer with terminology; when I say political ideology, I mean a type of government (e.g. communism, democracy, dictatorship, etc.), in keeping with the example you gave. Those are simply defined by who is in power.

Quote by: Fonceai A religion that praises anal rape and child sacrifice is not evil.

Worried now.

Quote by: Fonceai Evil is attributed to conscious and sentient behavior.

No; the preformance of evil is attributed to sentient behavior. Religions, of course, cannot do evil. But they can cause it. And that makes them just as guilty.

Quote by: Fonceai I could just as easily kill dozens of people and cite that because I'm an atheist there is no eternal punishment. Therefore I can kill without fear of Hell and fulfill my need to wonder what it's like to see people bleed, cry, die, whatever.

And that would be the fault of atheism, and contribute to atheism's evilness. But how many people actually do that?

Quote by: Fonceai Anything can be cited as a reason

But it's not. No one goes around killing people in the name of atheism, or in the name of Newton's Law of Gravitation. People could, certainly, but they don't. And that's the important point.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Athena We do good things for others, because we are human. I am not a religious person. I started this thread because I want religious people to be accountable for the evils done in the name of God. ONE OF THOSE EVILS IS THE FALSE BELIEF ABOUT HUMAN BEINGS. WE ARE GOOD, BECAUSE IT IS OUR NATURE TO BE GOOD.

Not all religious people fit in this para-box lumper you have created. EVIL, or doing bad things to people, life and the earth is potential attribute of human free-will and a scape goat word religion. Many who are decidedly evil. violent and deadly to others claim that they are not religious.

Religion and religious are words and not stones to throw at people or build walls,

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Castle Religions, of course, cannot do evil. But they can cause it. And that makes them just as guilty.

How does a religion "cause" me to do anything?

Please be as specific as possible.

Quote by: Castle But how many people actually do that?

What does it matter of 1 person or 100 people actually do it.

You're basically acknowledging then that atheism is evil?

Quote by: Castle No one goes around killing people in the name of atheism, or in the name of Newton's Law of Gravitation. People could, certainly, but they don't. And that's the important point.

Aaaaand... you allowed yourself to be baited.

Since it's "the important point" then tell me... are either of those evil?

You don't think they are, regardless of if they are cited as a reason for evil action, right?

So how can you conclude that religion is evil?

You said yourself...

Quote by: Castle the preformance of evil is attributed to sentient behavior.

How can something be evil if it doesn't "do" anything?

If something can't perform evil, how can it be evil?

You're digging yourself into a hole here, and I don't think you can see it.