Evils of Religion

[samsara15]

1958. I grew up before then, and back then so-called liberal Christianity dominated. I used to go to a Presbyterian church where, it seemed to me, no two people agreed on anything, or believed the same thing. And since they didn't, they weren't very pushy about enforcing their views on others. It was a live and let live environment. Yet, Presbyterianism was based on Calvin, a fanatical bigot if there ever was one.

[Nathan Struth]

Umm...does anyone disagree there would be less killings though if there weren't religion? Such as crusades, and Spanish Inquisition, Holocaust? That's why religion brings evil. I don't think it is evil. I love what Jesus taught if you put the right metaphors in, but no one completely follows it, therefore, we should get rid of it because it's killing more people than it would've saved.


A solution

Teach morals of society in school, this is done in Kindergarton and Preschool, but don't teach god. Let it be a personal thing, and shun anyone who wants to kill someone for believing in something else to help control disunity within this society.

Any arguments?

[Fonceai]

Just because there wouldn't be wars over the supernatural doesn't mean there wouldn't be wars over which natural discoveries are valid and/or not.

Science still accepts and rejects certain ideas. You'd be amazed at how many ideas were discarded but turned out to be dozens if not hundreds of years ahead of their time.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Nathan Struth A solution Teach morals of society in school, this is done in Kindergarton and Preschool, but don't teach god. Let it be a personal thing, and shun anyone who wants to kill someone for believing in something else to help control disunity within this society. Any arguments?

Nice suggestion, but who would bell the CAT, all are mice around?????:( :)

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai Just because there wouldn't be wars over the supernatural doesn't mean there wouldn't be wars over which natural discoveries are valid and/or not.

Ridiculous.

Religion (Christianity in particular) is a form of propaganda with powerful emotional appeals. It's meant to swing the will of large groups of people into behaving specific ways. Science (natural discoveries) has no such doctrinal axe to grind. It's only interested in understanding unknowns.

I'm trying to imagine large groups of science-zealots going to war over Newtonian physics vs Einsteinian physics. The best image I can conjure is something so ridiculously silly it would probably make a top ten list on youtube.

[Fonceai]

You've clearly never seen science-minded people argue over which evidence is more valid over one conclusion that another.

Humanity causes wars, not religion.

[Mr. Hyde]

Quote by: Zhavric ...religion's good aspects will outweigh its bad ones.

Tax exempt charities. Encouraging fellowship. Two that can easily be done secularly.

Quote by: Zhavric ... each and every bad thing done in the name of religion should be blamed on the individual who strayed from "the word" and did their own thing.

Problem is, during the worst of the atrocities, it was professed experts on "The word" encouraging the violence, and some still are today, IE, Muslim Imams(sp?), the likes of Robertson who claims God speaks to him, or Falwell, or Ayatollahs who proclaim that women should be burned for showing skin. I'm not familiar with the Jewish end of it, so I'll reserve commenting.

Seems to me, if mainstream religions wanted to defend themselves against the message sent by violent extremists, they would hand out copies of explanations supported by scholars along with the Bibles or at Sermons or in Mosques. But that's just how I see it.

Quote by: Zhavric ... other more specific objections such as many of history's greatest thinkers and scientists also being theists.

Some have to be given up. The rest, well the rest can easily be thrown back by using Atheist Scientists that expounded upon the theories or views put forth by the Theists.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai You've clearly never seen science-minded people argue over which evidence is more valid over one conclusion that another.

Fonce, you're too smart to use a defense like this.

Humanity causes wars, not religion.

Without religion to swing the will of the people, many wars would have never happened. Humans can swing their fists and pull triggers when they need to or want to. It is religion that makes them volunteer, puts them in neat rows and convinces them righteous murder is excusable.

[Athena]

Quote by: Fonceai You've clearly never seen science-minded people argue over which evidence is more valid over one conclusion that another. Humanity causes wars, not religion.

The link in Why we war, has me even more convinced religion is a main cause of war. For me thoughts of democracy and my importance in spreading these thoughts, is just as effective. Difference, democracy should never lead to war, because it is a proccess for resolving differences. A process Bush doesn't use.

When democracy is tied to nationalism, it is as bad as religion. The religions define us and "them". Nationalism defines us and "them". Religion puts some restrictions on war, but as long as it creates a reality of us and "them" it will be a source of war. For some Jews their immortality is tied to Israel and rebuilding their temple. This is true for Zionist Christains as well, who are moving us along to that final war proceding the second coming.

In away you and Kuldeep are correct about the problem being our egos and humanness, however, if we stop using religion and nationalism to divide us and "them", and use the democratic process to seek truth and resolve differences, that will prevent war.

The more we fear death, the more we focus on what makes us immortal, our beliefs and values. The more we focus on our beliefs and values that make us who we are, the more divided from "them" we feel, and the worst threat they are to us. The different groups of Muslims attacking each other, inflame the problem of their differences. Muslims attacking Jews and Jews attacking Muslims or Palestinians, inflames the problem. Once this starts, what is happening becomes fuel to the fire and can not be stopped until one or both sides are exhausted.

In Iraq we can either sacifrice our sons and daughters, until one or the other side of Muslims is exhausted, or we can walk away and let them destroy and exhaust each other. Bush senior understood this. Bush junior is unfit for presidency, and took his frat boy pranks and Mama's boy tricks, too far. He thought fear of our weapons would resolve the problem, and didn't understand what fear of death would do to inflame the conflict.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Mr. Hyde Tax exempt charities. Encouraging fellowship. Two that can easily be done secularly. Problem is, during the worst of the atrocities, it was professed experts on "The word" encouraging the violence, and some still are today, IE, Muslim Imams(sp?), the likes of Robertson who claims God speaks to him, or Falwell, or Ayatollahs who proclaim that women should be burned for showing skin. I'm not familiar with the Jewish end of it, so I'll reserve commenting. Seems to me, if mainstream religions wanted to defend themselves against the message sent by violent extremists, they would hand out copies of explanations supported by scholars along with the Bibles or at Sermons or in Mosques. But that's just how I see it. Some have to be given up. The rest, well the rest can easily be thrown back by using Atheist Scientists that expounded upon the theories or views put forth by the Theists.

Hyde.

If you were a real person, I'd go and give you a big hug and a sloppy wet kiss on the lips. I like to try to meet old friends as awkwardly as possible... if your skin isn't crawling then I haven't done my job.

I can't really disagree with your points, but that's a good thing.

Stick around, you may learn something.

[Fonceai]

@Zhavric
@Athena

It's like this...

Religion doesn't do anything. It's just a set of morals and ethics.

People disagree all the time.

People even disagree on differing moral and ethical opinions.

Wars will happen whether or not there is religion involved.

What it comes down to is the people in the disagreement defending their morals and ethics by saying they come from their religion, and vice versa for their opponent.

The religions have nothing to do with the actual cause of the war. They are just the pigeon-holing shortcut names that the opposing sides use to represent the morals and ethics on which they are basing their argument.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai @Zhavric @Athena It's like this... Religion doesn't do anything. It's just a set of morals and ethics. People disagree all the time. People even disagree on differing moral and ethical opinions. Wars will happen whether or not there is religion involved.

Wars happened with swords and axes. Wars happen with much more gruesome efficiency with guns & planes.

Wars will happen over land disputes. It's much easier to get people to go to war when they believe "god is on their side".

The religions have nothing to do with the actual cause of the war. They are just the pigeon-holing shortcut names that the opposing sides use to represent the morals and ethics on which they are basing their argument.

Not at all. Remember that religion (Christianity in particular) is a type of propaganda and propaganda is a handy & effective tool for swinging the will of the people.

[Fonceai]

But nothing in The Big Three (Christian, Jew, Muslim) says that you have to go to war if another country tries to take your oil, or your homeland, or kicks you in the balls, or slaps you in the face.

Religion, in and of itself, is not evil. Those who manipulate its interpretation to support their own misguided purposes are the evil ones.

Place blame where blame is due; on the person behind the action and not their excuse for why they did it.

[Kuldeep]

I too said the samething

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Fonceai But nothing in The Big Three (Christian, Jew, Muslim) says that you have to go to war if another country tries to take your oil, or your homeland, or kicks you in the balls, or slaps you in the face. Religion, in and of itself, is not evil. Those who manipulate its interpretation to support their own misguided purposes are the evil ones. Place blame where blame is due; on the person behind the action and not their excuse for why they did it.

Agreed!

If anything, the most common denominator is economic reasons and not religious ones. Humanity classifies people into groups it can hate such as race, ethnicity, nationality, etc. To make the claim that violence or hatred would even be limited by just removing one criterion is simply dishonest.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 Agreed! If anything, the most common denominator is economic reasons and not religious ones. Humanity classifies people into groups it can hate such as race, ethnicity, nationality, etc. To make the claim that violence or hatred would even be limited by just removing one criterion is simply dishonest.

Primarially when humanity would stop classifying people into groups but consider then humen first and then anythig else, I think then only violence or hatred would go away. Treat others as thyself should be slogan of humanity. Probably all religions world over have that statment as common factor. But ill humean mind is the culprit to fully shadow it.

[Castle]

Quote by: Nathan Struth Umm...does anyone disagree there would be less killings though if there weren't religion?

Maybe. You cite that the Inquistion and the Crusades were spurred by religion, but you forget that charity and humanitarian aid have also been inspired by religion. People like Mother Theresa do what they do because of religion.

Quote by: Fonceai Just because there wouldn't be wars over the supernatural doesn't mean there wouldn't be wars over which natural discoveries are valid and/or not.

Er...has there been? Ever? Science doesn't spark wars in the same manner religion does. No one kills over whether or not the theory of relativity is true.

Quote by: Fonceai The religions have nothing to do with the actual cause of the war. They are just the pigeon-holing shortcut names that the opposing sides use to represent the morals and ethics on which they are basing their argument.

So what wars have been fought over non-religious moral systems?

Quote by: Mr. Hyde Tax exempt charities. Encouraging fellowship. Two that can easily be done secularly.

Are they?

[Athena]

Hum. Billy Grahams holiday show this year, was much more focused on getting hurting people to call for help and collecting donations, than on preaching God has compelled good family men to serve in Iraq as it did last year.

We are told to fight for God and country, just as the Muslims are. While this year Billy Graham didn't say God compels our young to serve in war, he did feature a patriotic woman who lost her son sent to Afghanistan, and tied this to 9/11. The message this time, was this dead son is in a better place, and God ordained his death! This is a religious message spoken by a religious leader. How can a God ordain any son die in a war, without ordaining the war in the first place?

Yes, religion does compel our young to wars, and these wars do take the lives of civilians and the old testament says this is the way God does things.
Yes, religion is evil, because it begins with a war God who has choosen people, not the universal God that is Hellenized Judaism. It is a belief about a God and a God's will, including the need to rebuild the Jewish temple, or to protect the Mosque in Jersalem, which is at the heart of the conflict. Each side of the conflict understands God/Allah is willing them to protect what they believe is true vital to their religion.will too. Muslim, Christian or Jewish Israelis, you must fight for God and country. Only democracy ended this religious fighting, and thanks to Christianity we don't understand that.

[Athena]

We do good things for others, because we are human. I am not a religious person. I started this thread because I want religious people to be accountable for the evils done in the name of God. ONE OF THOSE EVILS IS THE FALSE BELIEF ABOUT HUMAN BEINGS. WE ARE GOOD, BECAUSE IT IS OUR NATURE TO BE GOOD.

[Athena]

Quote by: Fonceai @Zhavric @Athena It's like this... Religion doesn't do anything. It's just a set of morals and ethics. People disagree all the time. People even disagree on differing moral and ethical opinions. Wars will happen whether or not there is religion involved. What it comes down to is the people in the disagreement defending their morals and ethics by saying they come from their religion, and vice versa for their opponent. The religions have nothing to do with the actual cause of the war. They are just the pigeon-holing shortcut names that the opposing sides use to represent the morals and ethics on which they are basing their argument.

Holy books are just books equal to science fiction or the millions of unpublished books. It is the people who make religion, not the books.

Now because Judasim begins with a God who has favorite people, and the belief that it is our nature to be evil and therefore we must have God in our lives to be something other than evil, and only the right knowledge of God, and right practice of religion is, equal to having God in lives, all worshipers of the God of Abraham, a jealous, fearsome, punishing and revengeful God, are spreading evil. Religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, share the same basic, superstitious, non scientific understanding of reality, that is the cause of religious evils.

We are no more evil than good. It isn't a God that makes us more good, but how we understand ourselves and our lives that makes us think and do more good things than evil things. Beating the devil out of children and forcing them to go to church and practice religious rituals, will not result in good and healthy human beings, as well as something like the secular Virtues Preject. Science has done more for us than religious explanations of evil, demons, and God's punishment. In fact false religious explanations of what is so, delayed our exploration of truth, and caused terrible human tragedy. Nothing could be worse than religion blocking the progress of humanity.