Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Captain Chaos · Nov 28, 2006, 11:31 am

Dear Jesus:

I do not actually believe that you are the one true son of God. This is not to say that I am certain that you are not such an entity, it is just that I find the source of this claim (the Bible) a bit hard to swallow. The Bible makes claims about things like eternal torture, and punishing unborn children for the sins of their fathers and ancestors. This is just crazy talk, and thus rather difficult to believe. I also would be more inclined to believe the Bible if Biblical prophecies didn't always fall into one form of scam or another. Imagine, for example, a prophet actually made a prophecy like "Roughly 2000 years from now, a great tidal wave will devastate coastlines in the Indian Ocean." Then, after it happened, I would be rather impressed. The lack of prophecies that are hard to explain by either scams or natural means is a big problem, if the Bible is supposed to be divinely inspired.

So, that said, I find myself unconvinced of your divinity. However, I would like to cover my bets, on the off chance that you are, in fact, the one true son of God, and on the off chance that your pop punishes nonbelievers like me with an eternity of torture.

So...

Even though I lack belief in your divinity, I happily accept you into my heart, if you are a being of love and kindness (which I admit is a bit hard to rectify with the whole eternally burning in a lake of fire thing).

Yours with hope,

Captain Chaos (JDL)

P.S. Sorry about all the disturbingly offensive jokes I have made at your expense. Nothing personal, just trying to shock a few folks out of their religious stupors.

Captain Chaos · Nov 28, 2006, 11:33 am

So, for all you Christian folks on this site...

Does the above letter mean that I am saved, and do not need to worry about going to hell where I get to enjoy an eternity of torment?

tivodan1116 · Nov 28, 2006, 11:37 am

This is a discussion I have had within myself many a time.

The upside for me is, as is the case with my particular flavor of Christianity (Methodism), asking Jesus to forgive me for questioning my faith is enough so long as I also attempt to live a good life, and ask for forgiveness when I do not.

Or, to answer your question more directly, I believe that if you ask Jesus' forgiveness for not believing with your "whole heart" as they say, that yes, you will be saved. I would say your letter might need a little tweaking to actually do that, but if that is what you intended to do, Jesus will hear that and understand.

I'm sure MANY bible-thumpers on this site will disagree with me. That is why I am a Christian who doesn't really care for most "Christians"...

I think there are times when any religious person questions their beliefs. As simultaneously a Christian and someone who ascribes to the values of logic and the scientific method, I especially have this problem.

Jesus himself had this problem as he died on the cross ("My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" - his dying words). I consider that to be pretty good company.

Jagged · Nov 28, 2006, 12:17 pm

I doubt Jesus actually had anything to do with the bible

Heehoos · Nov 28, 2006, 06:10 pm

Do you feel saved? Lol...

And maybe it would be an interesting endeavor to find out who Jesus was (or was supposed to be) and what is meant by him being the "son" of God?

John Chapter 1 starts, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men."

The Word is intimated to be the source of life, the parts of all things that connect all things. Most of us (all living things) are oblivious to the part of us that is spiritual, perhaps even divine. Some call it the in-dwelling presence of God. The soul.

So what does that make Jesus? I think that makes Jesus a man who was completely aware of this -- one who did not have the blinders on that most of us have to that part of ourselves. (Sort of like not being really aware of how DNA works in our bodies, even though it is always there.) He was completely aware of his divinity and of the "big picture", the Way of all things.

Though we may all be sons and daughters of God, Jesus may be the "One True Son" of God in that nothing separated him from the Divinity of God, the Divinity of himself.

Read the Gospels with that in mind. It is rather interesting and gives a different perspective.

Captain Chaos · Nov 28, 2006, 07:01 pm

So, does that mean I won't go to hell and be tortured forever now?

Heehoos · Nov 28, 2006, 07:08 pm

LOL -- I don't know. I can't judge that. I don't have those kinds of answers. I just always enjoy looking for them.

Inlineskater · Nov 28, 2006, 07:22 pm

If you trully are an atheist why would you be afraid of going to hell? I beleive no one is going to hell and no one is going to heaven either, you only get one shot at life and thats it. But, for the sake of the discussion, assuming the christian god is real, no, I doubt you would be saved. Although the bible does contridict itself sometimes, in one quote it says something along the lines of if you take my word, and beleive in me, you will be saved. Yet... it says something along the lines of if you deny me (say something like god doesn't exist) then you will go to hell. Sorry, I don't have exact quotes, but the second one was from a previous volvonvo argument (The one about if someone was pointing a gun at your kid and told you to and say I don't beleive in god). If you take his word you're automaticly saved but if you say you don't beleive in god (even if you do) then you go to hell. How can that be possible, it doesn't say "If you take my word and beleive in me you will go to heaven*"
*Unless you lie about me and say I don't exist or say you don't beleive in me.
It more or less, contradicts itself, and supposedly the bible is supposed to be perfect and doesn't contradict itself? I think that should be enough for you to not care about whether you go hell or not because you don't think you're going to either.
SO, in the bibles self contradictory and dare I say it, flaws, it is impossible to come to a conclusion from a religious veiwpoint.

Inlineskater · Nov 28, 2006, 07:27 pm

Besides, don't you think that torture would wear off after a while? I mean pain is only something in your head that your brain tells you to be unpleasant, but wouldn't you get used to it?
And anyways, why would satan punish you for doing what he wanted you to, thats exactly what god wants you to think.

Zhavric · Nov 28, 2006, 09:16 pm

Jesus wasn't an actual person, thus I think I may start a similar thread about what I'd say to the people who started the myth and those who knew it was false, yet preached it anyway. Hmmm...

.

Scribbler1 · Nov 28, 2006, 09:39 pm

My only thought on this is if there IS a god and he is as forgiving as I am told, when I'm worm food he will see I was STILL a good and essentially moral person despite my lack of belief in him. That ought to be worth a LITTLE slack, I would think.

If that isn't enough then he is NOT as loving and forgiving of his creations as I am told. And THAT just throws the whole matter into uncertainty once again.

Shouldn't have given me the freedom to make choices no matter how you look at it.

samsara15 · Nov 28, 2006, 10:42 pm

We all have our own personal definitions of torture...an eternity of listening to Bush's or Clinton's speeches, for example.

Jesus never existed, I can handle that. Sounds reasonable to me.

Based on what I have read about Jehovah, if he exists, I think I'd rather be on the other side. No one could be much meaner than Jehovah, so it can only get better. If Satan is the losing side, and the prediction that He is so is only propaganda, he can't be any worse than Jehovah.

Personally, I'd prefer an impersonal God like Brahman.

Jakob · Nov 28, 2006, 11:32 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Captain Chaos

Even though I lack belief in your divinity, I happily accept you into my heart, if you are a being of love and kindness (which I admit is a bit hard to rectify with the whole eternally burning in a lake of fire thing).

Christianity doesn't rest on empty words. Belief is belief, and merely vomiting some formula will not get you saved.

I'd also like to state that your eternal state rests on yor shoulders, not God's. He's done the work already (at this point, I'm assuming that we're going to talk in the frame of reference that there is credence to the Bible, because otherwise this specific topic is moot). However, instead of having a mindless army of drones, He decided to give us free will. That means that our belief and acceptance of Him is our own choice, and that we love Him out of respect and awe, and not out of command.

The unfortunate side effect of this is that there is another choice to be made. If we can make the right choice, it is also possible to make the wrong point. It's not out of hate that you go to Hell, unless the hate is your own. Hell's definition is the complete and total absence of God. The fiery lake is a metaphor, an attempt to put into human words what is impossible for us to imagine. Hell is eternal torture because part of God's definition is "Good." In the complete absence of good, there can only be bad. Hell is your choice, not God's spite.

Captain Chaos · Nov 29, 2006, 11:06 am

Quote:

Quote by: Jakob

Christianity doesn't rest on empty words. Belief is belief, and merely vomiting some formula will not get you saved.

But I don't believe. My honest reaction to the Bible and various Christian apologetics is that the arguments presented are poppycock.

Are you suggesting I should lie to myself about this?

Quote:

Hell's definition is the complete and total absence of God.

Despite my lack of belief in Jesus as the one true son of God, I still welcome God into my heart.

Captain Chaos · Nov 29, 2006, 11:17 am

Quote:

Quote by: Inlineskater

Besides, don't you think that torture would wear off after a while? I mean pain is only something in your head that your brain tells you to be unpleasant, but wouldn't you get used to it?
And anyways, why would satan punish you for doing what he wanted you to, thats exactly what god wants you to think.

In the Christian mythos, Hell is created and run by God. God is in charge. As for torture, presumably God has the power to make it so that you do not get used to the pain, so that it always hurts as much as the first time.

Stewbert · Nov 29, 2006, 02:04 pm

Imagine this. A bunch of old guys dressed in nice clothing come up to you and say

"Be a good person. Don't lie, don't kill, don't steal, don't do bad things. But most importantly, you must love this guy that I'll introduce to you later. If you don't worship him, I don't care what good things you do, you will be tortured for eternity. Anyone who hasn't had water splashed on their foreheads by one of our group members will go to limbo. Anyone who belongs to another group or no group at all will be tortured when they die. Oh yea... no questions, no comments, no thinking. Just...just...just believe. Wait! Stop! I know you want to think right now but don't, trust me, you'll regret it. Don't believe me? I've got this really old book to prove it!"

If you told these guys that you don't really think thats how the world works, the only thing you have to be afraid of is that they'll jump you in a dark alley.

Zhavric · Nov 29, 2006, 03:11 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Jakob

Christianity doesn't rest on empty words. Belief is belief, and merely vomiting some formula will not get you saved.

Ironically, getting "saved" can come after a life of sin & evil so long as you "really believe". It's absolutely no basis for morality.

This is something I'd mention in a letter to Jesus if he were real.

Quote:

However, instead of having a mindless army of drones, He decided to give us free will. That means that our belief and acceptance of Him is our own choice, and that we love Him out of respect and awe, and not out of command.

"Believe in our dogma and go to heaven or deny it and be damned. This is your 'choice'."

Christianity presents a story that, if you accept it's completely unsupported outrageous claims, makes perfect sense to accept 100%. The problem is the claims Christianity makes are demonstrably false. Never forget that it's a type of propaganda written & re-written by individuals with a clear doctrinal axe to grind.

Christianity doesn't encourage free will or its followers to question it. It encourages its followers to DEFEND it, rewards followers who avoid investigating it, and seeks to convince the faithful that their illogical & irrational blind devotion is both logical & rational.

Quote:

It's not out of hate that you go to Hell, unless the hate is your own. Hell's definition is the complete and total absence of God.

Hell is an important part of Christian propaganda. Without it, we don't need a Jesus, ergo we don't need to adhere to a church. As I stated before, Christianity is a propaganda: it's attempting to sell itself to you. It's not unlike a pharmecutical: sin/hell are the diseases you don't really have and Christianity/salvation is the cure you don't really need.

These are all things I'd look to discuss with Jesus if he existed.

ImAlwaysRight · Nov 29, 2006, 03:25 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Captain Chaos

So, for all you Christian folks on this site...

Does the above letter mean that I am saved, and do not need to worry about going to hell where I get to enjoy an eternity of torment?

Despite popular belief among skeptics, Christians are not typically in the habit of passing the sort of judgment you are asking us to. Such things are generally left to God.

But since you asked, the first question I would have for you is this: Is that letter written with a sincere heart, or are you, as I suspect from your tone, merely mocking God? (You need not tell me which it is since, unlike God, I can be decieved; nor am I in a position to provide the salvation in question anyway.) If it is the latter, then perhaps Galatians 6:7 will shed some light on your question - "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap". You can draw your own conclusions from that passage.

If, on the other hand, your letter is sincere my answer is simply that I don't know. I would never underestimate God's grace with a person who sincerely seeks God.

In response to a fellow Christian asking "how can I be sure I'm actually saved?", a common rule of thumb offered by some christian teachers is "If your heart is such that you are worried about being saved, then you probably are." - or something to that effect. Now, as I said, that is the counsel offered to christians. I wouldn't assume that that advice is necessarily applicable to someone who takes pleasure in going on message boards and demeaning the christian faith or who expends his God-given intellect on constructing arguments to justify his disbelief - and then write a mock letter to God just to "hedge his bets".

Zhavric · Nov 29, 2006, 03:34 pm

Quote:

and demeaning the christian faith

Easy there, tiger. We know that Christians don't have much of a sense of humor when it comes to their stories, but if you don't like someone's expressions then you aren't required to read them. Also, many of you do become incredibly thin-skinned when it comes to any sort of discussion like this. Did CC state something in the original post like, "Jesus, why are all your followers complete (insert nasty word)?"

No, he did not. So please don't accuse someone of "demeaning" you when this was clearly not the intention of the op.

Captain Chaos · Nov 29, 2006, 03:58 pm

Quote:

Quote by: AlwaysRight

Is that letter written with a sincere heart, or are you, as I suspect from your tone, merely mocking God?

A mocking tone does not mean I am mocking God.

Mocking or not, I am totally sincere in my desire not to be tortured for eternity. I am quite certain that I would do most anything that did not involve eternally harming others in order to avoid being eternally tortured.

Quote:

I wouldn't assume that that advice is necessarily applicable to someone who takes pleasure in going on message boards and demeaning the christian faith or who expends his God-given intellect on constructing arguments to justify his disbelief - and then write a mock letter to God just to "hedge his bets".

Conservative Christian faith is pretty damn scary. A little demeaning is in order.

In truth, I have my own spiritual beliefs and practices.

On top of that, I am perfectly willing to let Jesus into my heart (if he exists) on the condition that doing so will not turn me evil, and will allow me to avoid eternal damnation.

I still don't believe though.

I see no way to believe, without outright lying to myself. Too much of conservative Christian belief reeks of complete BS to be believable.

Nov 28, 2006, 11:31 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Captain Chaos Shifting Paradigms Location: Flowery Branch, GA Posts: 3,102	Dear Jesus: A letter to Jesus from a nonbeliever Dear Jesus: I do not actually believe that you are the one true son of God. This is not to say that I am certain that you are not such an entity, it is just that I find the source of this claim (the Bible) a bit hard to swallow. The Bible makes claims about things like eternal torture, and punishing unborn children for the sins of their fathers and ancestors. This is just crazy talk, and thus rather difficult to believe. I also would be more inclined to believe the Bible if Biblical prophecies didn't always fall into one form of scam or another. Imagine, for example, a prophet actually made a prophecy like "Roughly 2000 years from now, a great tidal wave will devastate coastlines in the Indian Ocean." Then, after it happened, I would be rather impressed. The lack of prophecies that are hard to explain by either scams or natural means is a big problem, if the Bible is supposed to be divinely inspired. So, that said, I find myself unconvinced of your divinity. However, I would like to cover my bets, on the off chance that you are, in fact, the one true son of God, and on the off chance that your pop punishes nonbelievers like me with an eternity of torture. So... Even though I lack belief in your divinity, I happily accept you into my heart, if you are a being of love and kindness (which I admit is a bit hard to rectify with the whole eternally burning in a lake of fire thing). Yours with hope, Captain Chaos (JDL) P.S. Sorry about all the disturbingly offensive jokes I have made at your expense. Nothing personal, just trying to shock a few folks out of their religious stupors. Do all things with love.

Nov 28, 2006, 11:33 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Captain Chaos Shifting Paradigms Location: Flowery Branch, GA Posts: 3,102	So, for all you Christian folks on this site... Does the above letter mean that I am saved, and do not need to worry about going to hell where I get to enjoy an eternity of torment? Do all things with love.

Nov 28, 2006, 11:37 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
tivodan1116 Juris Doctor Location: NY Posts: 2,419	This is a discussion I have had within myself many a time. The upside for me is, as is the case with my particular flavor of Christianity (Methodism), asking Jesus to forgive me for questioning my faith is enough so long as I also attempt to live a good life, and ask for forgiveness when I do not. Or, to answer your question more directly, I believe that if you ask Jesus' forgiveness for not believing with your "whole heart" as they say, that yes, you will be saved. I would say your letter might need a little tweaking to actually do that, but if that is what you intended to do, Jesus will hear that and understand. I'm sure MANY bible-thumpers on this site will disagree with me. That is why I am a Christian who doesn't really care for most "Christians"... I think there are times when any religious person questions their beliefs. As simultaneously a Christian and someone who ascribes to the values of logic and the scientific method, I especially have this problem. Jesus himself had this problem as he died on the cross ("My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" - his dying words). I consider that to be pretty good company. "But it wasn't until he met his beautiful wife that he learned using logic and reason isn't enough. You have to be a dick to everyone who doesn't think like you." - South Park on Richard Dawkins

Nov 28, 2006, 06:10 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Heehoos Molten Ash Location: Pacific Northwest, USA Posts: 103	Do you feel saved? Lol... And maybe it would be an interesting endeavor to find out who Jesus was (or was supposed to be) and what is meant by him being the "son" of God? John Chapter 1 starts, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men." The Word is intimated to be the source of life, the parts of all things that connect all things. Most of us (all living things) are oblivious to the part of us that is spiritual, perhaps even divine. Some call it the in-dwelling presence of God. The soul. So what does that make Jesus? I think that makes Jesus a man who was completely aware of this -- one who did not have the blinders on that most of us have to that part of ourselves. (Sort of like not being really aware of how DNA works in our bodies, even though it is always there.) He was completely aware of his divinity and of the "big picture", the Way of all things. Though we may all be sons and daughters of God, Jesus may be the "One True Son" of God in that nothing separated him from the Divinity of God, the Divinity of himself. Read the Gospels with that in mind. It is rather interesting and gives a different perspective. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force… We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. - Max Planck, Father of Quantum Theory

Nov 28, 2006, 07:01 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Captain Chaos Shifting Paradigms Location: Flowery Branch, GA Posts: 3,102	So, does that mean I won't go to hell and be tortured forever now? Do all things with love.

Nov 28, 2006, 12:17 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Jagged 99 Red Balloons Location: Washington DC Posts: 274	I doubt Jesus actually had anything to do with the bible

Nov 28, 2006, 07:08 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Heehoos Molten Ash Location: Pacific Northwest, USA Posts: 103	LOL -- I don't know. I can't judge that. I don't have those kinds of answers. I just always enjoy looking for them. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force… We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. - Max Planck, Father of Quantum Theory

Nov 28, 2006, 07:22 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Inlineskater Molten Ash Posts: 28	If you trully are an atheist why would you be afraid of going to hell? I beleive no one is going to hell and no one is going to heaven either, you only get one shot at life and thats it. But, for the sake of the discussion, assuming the christian god is real, no, I doubt you would be saved. Although the bible does contridict itself sometimes, in one quote it says something along the lines of if you take my word, and beleive in me, you will be saved. Yet... it says something along the lines of if you deny me (say something like god doesn't exist) then you will go to hell. Sorry, I don't have exact quotes, but the second one was from a previous volvonvo argument (The one about if someone was pointing a gun at your kid and told you to and say I don't beleive in god). If you take his word you're automaticly saved but if you say you don't beleive in god (even if you do) then you go to hell. How can that be possible, it doesn't say "If you take my word and beleive in me you will go to heaven" Unless you lie about me and say I don't exist or say you don't beleive in me. It more or less, contradicts itself, and supposedly the bible is supposed to be perfect and doesn't contradict itself? I think that should be enough for you to not care about whether you go hell or not because you don't think you're going to either. SO, in the bibles self contradictory and dare I say it, flaws, it is impossible to come to a conclusion from a religious veiwpoint.

Nov 28, 2006, 07:27 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
Inlineskater Molten Ash Posts: 28	Besides, don't you think that torture would wear off after a while? I mean pain is only something in your head that your brain tells you to be unpleasant, but wouldn't you get used to it? And anyways, why would satan punish you for doing what he wanted you to, thats exactly what god wants you to think.

Nov 28, 2006, 09:16 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
Zhavric Made of pure win. Posts: 3,807	Jesus wasn't an actual person, thus I think I may start a similar thread about what I'd say to the people who started the myth and those who knew it was false, yet preached it anyway. Hmmm... . Theists: supplying volconvo with lose since 2004.

Nov 28, 2006, 09:39 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,837	My only thought on this is if there IS a god and he is as forgiving as I am told, when I'm worm food he will see I was STILL a good and essentially moral person despite my lack of belief in him. That ought to be worth a LITTLE slack, I would think. If that isn't enough then he is NOT as loving and forgiving of his creations as I am told. And THAT just throws the whole matter into uncertainty once again. Shouldn't have given me the freedom to make choices no matter how you look at it. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Nov 28, 2006, 10:42 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
samsara15 I'm the camel Location: Maryland Posts: 657	We all have our own personal definitions of torture...an eternity of listening to Bush's or Clinton's speeches, for example. Jesus never existed, I can handle that. Sounds reasonable to me. Based on what I have read about Jehovah, if he exists, I think I'd rather be on the other side. No one could be much meaner than Jehovah, so it can only get better. If Satan is the losing side, and the prediction that He is so is only propaganda, he can't be any worse than Jehovah. Personally, I'd prefer an impersonal God like Brahman. Economic Left/Right -8.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian –6.97

Nov 29, 2006, 02:04 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Stewbert Urban Shaman Posts: 33	Imagine this. A bunch of old guys dressed in nice clothing come up to you and say "Be a good person. Don't lie, don't kill, don't steal, don't do bad things. But most importantly, you must love this guy that I'll introduce to you later. If you don't worship him, I don't care what good things you do, you will be tortured for eternity. Anyone who hasn't had water splashed on their foreheads by one of our group members will go to limbo. Anyone who belongs to another group or no group at all will be tortured when they die. Oh yea... no questions, no comments, no thinking. Just...just...just believe. Wait! Stop! I know you want to think right now but don't, trust me, you'll regret it. Don't believe me? I've got this really old book to prove it!" If you told these guys that you don't really think thats how the world works, the only thing you have to be afraid of is that they'll jump you in a dark alley. "Remember, Jesus would rather constantly shame gays than let orphans have a family."