Dear Jesus: A letter to Jesus from a nonbeliever

[prejudged_Fire]

I am not particularly fond of the eternal death option either.

Yeah.... well... hmmm that is a problem. Well, I certainly hope that you can compromise with God someday so you can do what you want and get away with it. I'm signing off, you're acting rediculous. You want to do what you want and believe what you want and not be afraid of being punished.

[prejudged_Fire]

God created everyone with a propensity for sin

no.. He created us to be perfect. We have sin because Adam and Eve sinned.

[Occam]

Until someone can show physical world occurrances that were clearly caused by god, then the concept is a waste of time. Similarly, until one can offer clear evidence of an afterlife, the concept is a waste of time.

However, if in spite of that you still ask what your post-death destiny will be if a god exists, you are wasting your time. Consider the mental capabilities of this putative being. It would be like comparing the mental capabilities of a virus to that of a human. As such, there's no way you can even begin to understand its (god's) reasoning, motivations, desires, or rules so you are wasting your time.

Occam

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai I am fully aware that what I believe has no rational proof to it. That's why my reason for believing is my own, and I don't share it.

This is a cop-out. There's really no other term for it.

Your inability to understand how an intelligent person can have the above rationale is something you won't understand until you're one of them.

I know EXACTLY why you're making such a cop-out. You believe what you do because you're memetically inclined to do so. It's that simple.

[Fonceai]

You perceive it as a cop-out because you aren't capable of understanding it.

You think there needs to be factual and perfect proof for everything in your head, and that's your business.

I don't need there to be, and that's my business.

That doesn't make me any less intelligent, just makes me different.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: God's Merc God did not create us with sin, (Genesis, try reading it). He created everything essentially good

I said created us with a propensity for sin. That means we are prone to sinning. Do you know any adult humans who are sinless? I assume the answer is 'no' - we must be prone to sinning, if everyone is a sinner.

He does, however, love us so much that He lets us have free will to choose His way or reject it (sin).

And yet he apparently does not love us enough to present his way in such a fashion that it would be believable to all. You cannot make a truly informed decision if the information you get is presented to you in a fashion that you cannot believe.

He has tried to reform us ;the prophets, Jesus, and other sources were sent for this exact purpose. However, many of us still ignore Him.

Ignoring him because we are tempted to do evil things is very different from ignoring him because you find the information that supports the existence of an Abrahamic god to be not believable.

I find the concept of a vengeful god equally disturbing. God is, in fact, trying desperately to save us. He knows that only He can lead us to Salvation.

No. He is not trying desperately to save us. Do you need examples of things he could do to try harder?

1) We could be born with a certain knowledge of the metaphysical contruction of reality. If we knew for sure that the Jesus myth were true, then we would be far more equipped to make an informed decision.

2) The Bible could have been inspired in such a way that it would be far more convincing. Prophecies, for example, could be made for specific times and places. If the Bible said "2000 years from now, a great tidal wave will overrun many shorelines in the Indian Ocean", then, after it happened, I would be convinced that the prophet who said that had some sort of access to supernatural information. However, the prophecies in the Bible always fall into some sort of prophetic scam. The can all be explained through rather obvious natural means.

3) Jesus could regularly come to Earth (like once every 100 years or so) and perform miracles for the masses.


The fact that the Abrahamic God does not do the things that it would take to convince people of his existence means that he is either not all that concerned with our salvation, or that he does not exist.

I would explain how God could damn us to Hell in this way: A mother tells her child that if he runs in the road he will get hit, and he does it anyway and is killed. Just because what the Mother said would happen happened doesn't mean she wanted it to happen. She wasn't telling her son not to disobey because she didn't want Him to go in the road. She instead wanted him to avoid the consequences of this decision.

In your analogy, the mother did not deliberately cause the car to hit the child. But God makes the choice to eternally damn a person. A beter analogy would be to say that the mother tells the child "if you go in the road, I will pull out my shotgun and blow your head off." The child goes in the road, so the mother kills him. Surely the mother could do better than that?

The fact that the child disobeyed does not mean the he deserved to be murdered.

God does not wish hell upon us. To the contrary, He is trying to save us from it. If you choose sin, as a consequence, you choose Hell. God doesn't want us to go to hell, but if we choose it, He respects our decision.

And will he respect our decision if, after we go to hell and thus have new information confirming its existence, we decide to believe and obey.

Or, if you are a believer in eternal death...

If, at the moment of judgement when we have confirmatory information, we realize we were wrong and come to believe after all, will your God then respect our decision?

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: prejudged_Fire Yeah.... well... hmmm that is a problem. Well, I certainly hope that you can compromise with God someday so you can do what you want and get away with it. I'm signing off, you're acting rediculous. You want to do what you want and believe what you want and not be afraid of being punished.

You misunderstand the nature of belief. I believe what I believe. My beliefs are a reaction to information. I do not see how I could believe the Jesus myth without lying to myself.

And, I am not acting ridiculous. Your arguments are failing, and you are resorting to an attack as a result.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Occam Until someone can show physical world occurrances that were clearly caused by god, then the concept is a waste of time. Similarly, until one can offer clear evidence of an afterlife, the concept is a waste of time. However, if in spite of that you still ask what your post-death destiny will be if a god exists, you are wasting your time. Consider the mental capabilities of this putative being. It would be like comparing the mental capabilities of a virus to that of a human. As such, there's no way you can even begin to understand its (god's) reasoning, motivations, desires, or rules so you are wasting your time. Occam

Occam. Would you care to have a one-on-one debate regarding the existence of an afterlife?

[Jack]

God doesn't want us to go to hell, but if we choose it, He respects our decision.

From this I conclude:
a) we are more powerful than god in that we can defy his will
b) things happen that god doesn't want to happen, therefore he is not omnipotent
c) he respects our decision and loves us enough to condemn us to everlasting hell (we may have earned it but he created it)
d) the notion of this god is so silly the concept can't even be intelligently defended using his own book

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Isherwood a) we are more powerful than god in that we can defy his will

We can defy his intentions and surprise him, but I'm sure if God wills something there is nothing we can do to stop it.

Quote by: Isherwood b) things happen that god doesn't want to happen, therefore he is not omnipotent

You can not want something to happen but still let happen. Desire and ability (omnipotence) are two different things.

Quote by: Isherwood c) he respects our decision and loves us enough to condemn us to everlasting hell (we may have earned it but he created it)

Depends on what gets you sent to Hell. Since I don't believe in the concept of Hell, I don't think it matters.

Quote by: Isherwood d) the notion of this god is so silly the concept can't even be intelligently defended using his own book

"the notion of the Christian god..."

I think it's sad that even the most articulate among us still limits their perspective on religion to American Christianity.

[ImAlwaysRight]

No one has yet provided a reasonable answer.

It was a yes or no question. If I had to give an answer right now, my best guess would be no.

So, God chooses who is not to be saved? Does that not bother you?

No. Who would be better to make such a choice than our omnipotent omniscient, creator. In your ideal world, who do you think would be best suited to make such judgements?

So, Ghandi would be ok?

If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on Ghandi before I'd put it on you, if that's what you're asking.

The quantity of available information is effectively infinite, because it is more than a single person could ever process. However, the more I read the more I become turned off by it. The The quantity of available information is effectively infinite, because it is more than a single person could ever process. However, the more I read the more I become turned off by it. The conservative Christian metaphysical belief just seems so damn loony. Think about it. Your concept of God created everyone with a propensity for sin, and then punishes them forever when they carry out that propensity, rather than helping them reform after they have died. How does that make sense? The conservative Christian metaphysical belief just seems so damn loony. Think about it. Your concept of God created everyone with a propensity for sin, and then punishes them forever when they carry out that propensity, rather than helping them reform after they have died. How does that make sense?

Well, if that's your idea of the "conservative Christian metaphysical belief", it's no wonder you think it's so damn loony. I have never heard a Christian express such an erroneous, shallow, incomplete, understanding of Christian beliefs. You've intentionally distilled out all of the doctrines concerning "free-will", redemption, god's grace and mercy, forgiveness, and ultimately the gift of salvation being offered to anyone who is willing to take it. You have dishonestly omitted these things to paint the most imbalanced and dismal picture you can of a merciless, unjust, sadistic God who set humanity up as victims of his cruel designs. So please drop the charade that you've made an honest, balanced study of christian belief and have arrived the only conclusion your rational mind can permit.

Doesn't that tell you something right there? Some rational people conclude one thing, and other rational people conclude something else. If God really wanted us to believe, couldn't he have written the Bible so that all rational people would see it as true?

There is no way he could have written the Bible so as to prevent dishonest people from intentionally distorting it's message as you have done. That would require depriving us of free-will. You may consider yourself s generally rational person(and you may actually be), but obviously your skewed take on Christianity is not the result of a complete and rational analysis of the information.

By making the Bible not very believable, God is intentionally denying heaven to millions who would otherwise choose him of their own free will.

But, again, the fact that many rational people have seen fit to believe it puts the lie to your premise that it's utterly unbelieveable. It contains events that are obviously supernatural or miraculous, but such things are only "unbelievable" if one presumes the materialist world view that there is no reality beyond the natural, physical universe - a view which I find utterly unbelievable inasmuch as nobody has ever described to me any physical characteristics of the human soul or our thoughts or our emotions or of the concept of rationality itself.

Forcing people to guess at the right answer, and then eternally punishing them when they guess wrong is just psycho.

Well, at least in your case, it can safely be said that you have not merely "guessed wrong", but have intentionally distorted the information that has been given in order to justify your non-belief.

The true reason is that I find a psycho hateful god of torture to be very hard to believe. My conscience recoils at the thought of God's reality being so fundamentally evil. Yours should too.

What makes you think mine wouldn't . Please don't confuse your ignorance about the nature of God with some alleged deficiency in my conscience.

I still wanna cover my bets though. Why can't I accept Jesus, while not believing in him?

On the face of it, it seems like a logical impossibility. However, you may find a philosopher who will help you untangle that paradox and give you the answer you're looking for.

Does the Bible actually say that belief in Jesus' divinity is mandatory, or does it say something else that has been interpreted to mean that?

That's a good question. I don't think it says so explicitly, but there are parts that can and have been interpreted that way. I think most Christians tend toward toward the interpretation that belief in Jesus is necessary more because it is a safer bet than because the Bible is says it unambiguously. I believe that belief in Jesus is a requirement for Christians to have the assurance that they are saved, but non-belief in the divinity of Jesus doesn't preclude God from extending his grace to such people. It is that assurance without belief that you are looking for, which is why you are finding all of the answers so unsatisfactory.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: AlwaysRight No. Who would be better to make such a choice than our omnipotent omniscient, creator. In your ideal world, who do you think would be best suited to make such judgements?

That was not my point.

No one should be chosen for eternal damnation. I can envision better systems, and I am sure God can do so as well.

If I was a betting man, I'd put my money on Ghandi before I'd put it on you, if that's what you're asking.

I am asking if nonbelievers can be saved.

Well, if that's your idea of the "conservative Christian metaphysical belief", it's no wonder you think it's so damn loony. I have never heard a Christian express such an erroneous, shallow, incomplete, understanding of Christian beliefs.

Read around on this site.

You've intentionally distilled out all of the doctrines concerning "free-will", redemption, god's grace and mercy, forgiveness, and ultimately the gift of salvation being offered to anyone who is willing to take it. You have dishonestly omitted these things to paint the most imbalanced and dismal picture you can of a merciless, unjust, sadistic God who set humanity up as victims of his cruel designs. So please drop the charade that you've made an honest, balanced study of christian belief and have arrived the only conclusion your rational mind can permit.

You've no idea what goes through my mind.

I have arrived at a conclusion. Rational people can arrive at different conclusions regarding Christianity. Rational people with all the available facts cannot help but conclude that the Earth is roughly a sphere. However, rational people with all the available facts are in wide disagreement about the truth or falsehood of Christianity. Clearly, God is not interested in making sure the truth is presented in a truly believable fashion. He could do so, but does not.

There is no way he could have written the Bible so as to prevent dishonest people from intentionally distorting it's message as you have done. That would require depriving us of free-will.

Clear communication does not deprive you of free will. Possessing all the information and having it presented to you in a believable fashion makes you informed, it does not take away your ability to make choices.

You may consider yourself s generally rational person(and you may actually be), but obviously your skewed take on Christianity is not the result of a complete and rational analysis of the information.

It is. You just don't like to think about the ugly side of your religion.

But, again, the fact that many rational people have seen fit to believe it puts the lie to your premise that it's utterly unbelieveable.

I find it utterly unbelievable. I did not say that all rational people find it utterly unbelievable.

It contains events that are obviously supernatural or miraculous, but such things are only "unbelievable" if one presumes the materialist world view that there is no reality beyond the natural, physical universe - a view which I find utterly unbelievable inasmuch as nobody has ever described to me any physical characteristics of the human soul or our thoughts or our emotions or of the concept of rationality itself.

I also do not subscribe to the materialist worldview. However, I find myself not believing the details of the miraculous events described in the Bible. The process of myth-making seems like a better explanation.

Well, at least in your case, it can safely be said that you have not merely "guessed wrong", but have intentionally distorted the information that has been given in order to justify your non-belief.

So back up your claim with details. What information have I presented this is factually incorrect?

What makes you think mine wouldn't . Please don't confuse your ignorance about the nature of God with some alleged deficiency in my conscience.

Please don't confuse your deficient conscience with deliberate ignorance about the nature of the conservative Christian view of God.

That's a good question. I don't think it says so explicitly, but there are parts that can and have been interpreted that way. I think most Christians tend toward toward the interpretation that belief in Jesus is necessary more because it is a safer bet than because the Bible is says it unambiguously.

Safer bet? I just don't get that. Are they choosing to believe, even though it does not make sense to them? How is that possible? How can a person choose a belief that does not make sense to them, and still remain honest? I cannot do that.

I believe that belief in Jesus is a requirement for Christians to have the assurance that they are saved, but non-belief in the divinity of Jesus doesn't preclude God from extending his grace to such people. It is that assurance without belief that you are looking for, which is why you are finding all of the answers so unsatisfactory.

I am looking for reasonable answers. They are somewhat lacking.

[ImAlwaysRight]

My beliefs are a reaction to information. I do not see how I could believe the Jesus myth without lying to myself.

But as I've already demonstrated, you've resorted to lying to yourself about christian beliefs in order to disbelieve them.

In all of you talk of the injustice of God's plan, you have yet to tell us why you think you are deserving of spending eternity in the presence of God.

Whether you view it this way or not, God views sinners as being in a state of rebellion against his will. It is his desire that everyone would realize their sin, repent, and surrender their wills to his will as a conscious act. This doesn't mean people stop committing acts of sin, it just means they acknowledge the supremacy of his will over ours - and thus it ends our rebellion.

Whereas God wants very much for us all to surrender in this way, I see no reason why he would have any interest in allowing those who have not surrendered into his kingdom to screw things up there the way we have here.

He could not have made the path to salvation any simpler or more inclusive, all he requires is that it be earnest.

[Heehoos]

I'd say that we are a culture of extreme generalizations. We prefer lumping people into categories and basing our impressions on sound bytes. Most times, we believe what people tell us to believe.

What we need to realize is that all human beings are individuals. No two Christians are going to have the same ideas of God. No two athiests are going to have the same idea about the world. No two Muslims, etc. We have commonalities, sure, but every person views the world through their own eyes.

Christians need to stop thinking that everybody who doesn't believe like they do are lesser beings. Non-theists need to stop thinking that every theist uses their faith to judge others. Westerners need to stop thinking Muslims are out to get them. We all need to realize that we are very individual people that all share commonalities on some level.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: AlwaysRight But as I've already demonstrated, you've resorted to lying to yourself about christian beliefs in order to disbelieve them.

No. You claimed that. I am still waiting for a demonstration. Please show where my facts are incorrect.

In all of you talk of the injustice of God's plan, you have yet to tell us why you think you are deserving of spending eternity in the presence of God.

I believe I am not deserving of eternal misery. I am not sure why one must be deserving to be in God's presence. I don't get the point of that.

It is his desire that everyone would realize their sin, repent, and surrender their wills to his will as a conscious act.

OK. No problem. I am happy to do that. When I encounter his will, I will do my best to follow it.

This doesn't mean people stop committing acts of sin, it just means they acknowledge the supremacy of his will over ours - and thus it ends our rebellion.

Disbelief is not a form of rebellion.

He could not have made the path to salvation any simpler or more inclusive, all he requires is that it be earnest.

Yes, he could have. He could have inspired the Bible so that it would be more believable.

[Jack]

limits their perspective on religion to American Christianity.

I try not to. Let me state then that I consider any concept of a god that I've heard of, no matter which culture or age introduced it, nonsense.

[Fonceai]

That's better.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai You perceive it as a cop-out because you aren't capable of understanding it.

An untenable position on your part does not evidence deficiency on mine. You've convinced yourself that it's okay to believe in Jesus even though you're aware he never existed. I see what you're doing: You want it both ways. You want to be able to believe in Jesus as having been an actual person (of some sort) and yet not have to face the facts I've bought up suggesting that Jesus is a propaganda.

You're doing this because you're memetically disposed to do so. I don' t think for a moment you lack intelligence. You're simply unwilling or unable to confront your memetic attachment.

[Fonceai]

My position doesn't have to be "tenable" for anyone but me. I'm not trying to convince you my position is right.

What you fail to understand is that you matter jack shit in my personal belief system.

It's not about me not facing facts. I'm fully aware of them.

Again, you matter jack shit in my personal belief system. As do your facts.

It has nothing to do with "memetic disposition".

Trying to apply some kind of clever terminology to every spoken word is just senseless.

And this:

Quote by: Zhavric You're simply unwilling or unable to confront your memetic attachment.

... clearly demonstrates that you're looking to pick a fight and not really address what I already wrote. I'll use your pop culture terminology so maybe you understand...

I have already confronted the memes in my life. I was more than willing and highly able to confront them. Based on the "meme" and my experience, I chose which memes to accept and which to discard.

Is that clearer to you?

When you say "unwilling or unable to confront" what you're really saying is that because I don't agree with you, I must be unwilling or unable.

You will always fail in your argument as long as you insist that your answer is the same answer for people with different lives and experiences.

This is where you left off before your little vacation; that you are the same as the extreme theists who insist their belief is the truth. None of you are right.

[Zhavric]

So, your reply is to fling ad homs and cop-out. You are unable to argue the assertion "Jesus never existed", have decided it's okay to invent your own santa-like truth where Jesus exists "for you", and offered "yes I did!!" to my observation that you very obviously haven't confronted your memetic inclination to believe in a santa-like being.

I can live with that.