Dear Jesus: A letter to Jesus from a nonbeliever

[prejudged_Fire]

Almost all traditional christian Churches believe that Jesus was God Incarnate, not an actual son of a greater god. (that would not be monotheistic, but instead very Pagan.) The whole son thing is a convenient way to explain that Jesus "was made from God" the way a son springs from a father. Jesus was a human (as well as God, Whoa, almost makes you want to be atheist, doesn't it), he could pray, be scared, and have doubt. How Jesus could pray to himself is arguable (and a Mystery), but the fact that He was not literally the son of God is not. (if you put any stock in the Christian Bible, that is, if not, why are you reading this?)

"Almost all"... exactly.. not all. You're saying that it's pagan to believe that Jesus was actually the son of God when the bible states that he is? Nowhere does the bible say that Jesus and God are the same. When Jesus says "The Father and I are one" he's not talking literally. When two people marry, they are said to be "one" as in they are in unison with each other, not physically the same being. You said that the whole son thing is a way to explain that he was made from God. If he was made from God, how is he God himself?

[prejudged_Fire]

It's not a mystery, it's common sense.

[prejudged_Fire]

The point is that the Christian belief system says I am to be damned, which could be avoided if I believed. On the off chance that the Christians are correct in their beliefs, I would sure like to avoid eternal damnation. It sounds very unpleasant. Given that I do not believe, how can I avoid this unpleasantness?

You are generalizing Christians. The definition of Christian is one who believes that Jesus was the Messiah. Jews are not Christians, not because of the fact that they don't believe that Jesus existed because they do, they are non-christian because they do not believe he was who he said he was. Just because one is Christian doesn't mean they say you're going to be damned for not believing. I am a Christian and I'm telling you that you're not going to be damned in hell. (did you read what I said about hell not existing?) You are going to be punished, but not by eternal torment.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Fonceai "Fruits of the spirit"? That's quite lofty. Through violence I can ensure peace. Through violence I can secure money that buys happiness. Through money I can buy love. Each human is different. Some find solace in those things I listed above through violence or money. That doesn't make it any less real for them. Your fruits mean jack shit to someone who doesn't need to hide behind prayer to get what they want out of life.

But you can't demonstrate love, kindness or gentleness through violence. I believe the question was, how can one know they're doing God's will. My response was that one might have an idea that they are if they are demonstrating the fruits of the spirit (and not just one at a time).

I must admit I don't know a lot of people who demonstrate all of these things. (Again, they are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control). I certainly have a hard time with patience and self control. I've known a couple of people who do. And I would guarantee that money had nothing to do with it.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Captain Chaos The point is that the Christian belief system says I am to be damned, which could be avoided if I believed. On the off chance that the Christians are correct in their beliefs, I would sure like to avoid eternal damnation. It sounds very unpleasant. Given that I do not believe, how can I avoid this unpleasantness?

I don't know if such a thing as hell exists. But for the sake of argument, your point says that "belief" is necessary for salvation. You do not "believe" that Jesus is the "savior" (which would be necessary for the alleged salvation) therefore, you've already found your answer. If belief in a savior is necessary for salvation in your situation and you do not believe he is a savior, then you cannot possibly be saved, right?

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: prejudged_Fire You are generalizing Christians. The definition of Christian is one who believes that Jesus was the Messiah. Jews are not Christians, not because of the fact that they don't believe that Jesus existed because they do, they are non-christian because they do not believe he was who he said he was. Just because one is Christian doesn't mean they say you're going to be damned for not believing. I am a Christian and I'm telling you that you're not going to be damned in hell. (did you read what I said about hell not existing?) You are going to be punished, but not by eternal torment.

I am not particularly fond of the eternal death option either.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Heehoos I don't know if such a thing as hell exists. But for the sake of argument, your point says that "belief" is necessary for salvation. You do not "believe" that Jesus is the "savior" (which would be necessary for the alleged salvation) therefore, you've already found your answer. If belief in a savior is necessary for salvation in your situation and you do not believe he is a savior, then you cannot possibly be saved, right?

Hey! That's my point!


According to Christian beliefs, I am unsavable. I do not believe. I just don't find the arguments in favor of Christianity convincing, and I find the belief system itself morally questionable.

Is Heaven only for those who buy into bad reasoning?

[Heehoos]

Maybe the point is not believing what someone else tells you to believe, but the seeking itself? Perhaps part of salvation is the realization that there is more to our life and our world than the tangiable, physical world; that not everything is in our personal control. Also perhaps part of salvation is the discovery that you yourself contain part of that life source, the thing/being/creator we call God, and the realization that every other human being contains this same part of God. Perhaps Salvation begins here in this life in the freedom from hate, anger, jealousy.

That sort of mysticism stuff.

Personally, I believe that this is part of what Jesus was trying to tell us.

The point I'm trying to make (and I know it may not be clear) is that you're choosing one Christian viewpoint, one possibility out of many. Even Christians aren't clear on what equates to salvation.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Fonceai Your fruits mean jack shit to someone who doesn't need to hide behind prayer to get what they want out of life.

May I ask, by the way, what you want out of life? Do you have an idea for what life would be if you were truly, down to the core, happy? Can you describe what kind of person you envision yourself to be and the *place* you would be in?

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Heehoos Maybe the point is not believing what someone else tells you to believe, but the seeking itself? Perhaps part of salvation is the realization that there is more to our life and our world than the tangiable, physical world; that not everything is in our personal control. Also perhaps part of salvation is the discovery that you yourself contain part of that life source, the thing/being/creator we call God, and the realization that every other human being contains this same part of God. Perhaps Salvation begins here in this life in the freedom from hate, anger, jealousy. That sort of mysticism stuff. Personally, I believe that this is part of what Jesus was trying to tell us. The point I'm trying to make (and I know it may not be clear) is that you're choosing one Christian viewpoint, one possibility out of many. Even Christians aren't clear on what equates to salvation.

Hmmmm....

If the conservative Christians are right, I would still like to have my bases covered. How can I do this, if I genuinely find conservative Christianity to be a bit loony?

[Heehoos]

You can't.

Faith is a personal deal. How do you feel about God? If you are only concerned about eternal damnation, I don't know if it's worth the worry. You can't have it both ways. You can't disbelieve and pretend to believe to get by.

But if you are curious or want to invest into that journey of finding your own path, maybe it's not a bad idea.

(I don't know you -- maybe you already are. I'm just saying...)

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Heehoos You can't. Faith is a personal deal. How do you feel about God? If you are only concerned about eternal damnation, I don't know if it's worth the worry. You can't have it both ways. You can't disbelieve and pretend to believe to get by. But if you are curious or want to invest into that journey of finding your own path, maybe it's not a bad idea.

God and I are on fine terms - at least, that is true on my side of the relationship. He hasn't been real specific with me about his own feelings.

I am not saying I should get by, by pretending to believe. Quite the opposite. Why can't I get by on pure honesty?

I don't believe. But, on the off chance that it is true, I accept Christ into my heart. If Christ is real, my belief in him should not alter his capacity to affect me.

[Heehoos]

I think honesty is the best thing in the world. If anything you should be able to go to God and lay everything on the table without a worry.

Maybe the best course of action is to keep an open mind. Isn't anything possible?

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Heehoos I think honesty is the best thing in the world. If anything you should be able to go to God and lay everything on the table without a worry. Maybe the best course of action is to keep an open mind. Isn't anything possible?

You have a very open minded view for a Christian. I would say that you are an enlightened exception to what I have generally experienced among Christian attitudes.

[Fonceai]

@Zhavric

With everything you quoted, you missed the important part:

I am fully aware that what I believe has no rational proof to it. That's why my reason for believing is my own, and I don't share it.

Your inability to understand how an intelligent person can have the above rationale is something you won't understand until you're one of them. If you never will be, then it matters not. Continue anti-theisting those who insist their belief is true; I agree with that. But for those who know it's only true for themselves, you're just wasting time.

@Heehaws

What does it matter what I want out of life?

I wrote that you can achieve those things through non-Biblical means, thus showing you that statement is religiously tilted and flawed.

[ImAlwaysRight]

If I can only be saved through belief, but I do not believe, then how can I be saved?

You've asked this paradoxically concieved question half a dozen times and I think people have made a good faith effort to give their best answers without taking the bait and falling into the trap of presuming to speak for God - yet you keep belaboring this question.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

In other words, it is by Gods grace that he saves anyone he so chooses. According to this passage, the major criteria(if not the sole criteria) on which he makes this choice is whether or not we have faith that he will. Since, logically, this Faith in a Savior presupposes that you believe the Savior exists in the first place(not to mention that you are in need of salvation), then I'd say that according to Ephesians 2:8 there's no reason at this point to feel any assurance about being "saved" from this firey doom you don't believe in.

Having said that, I believe that God is perfectly capable of saving people who, for whatever reason, lack faith in the explict person of Jesus Christ because they lived before Jesus or they died too young to know about him. Therefore, I see no reason why his Grace might not extend to certain people who lived in a place or situation in which they never had a sporting chance to know about or have faith in Jesus, but in whose hearts God has found merit. Who, and under what circumstances, people will actually be the beneficiary from this exceptional Grace is a matter for God to decide. If you want me to take a stab at it, I'd guess that perhaps these are people who, despite their lack of knowledge of God's law, their conscience compels them to suppress their sinful nature and live according to God's righteousness that he has "written into everyone's heart" or who God recognizes has spent their lives genuinely seeking God and his righteousness.

You say you have thoroughly studied the matter and have come to the rational conclusion that it's all a bunch of hooey. Presumably, this is the case you would make for yourself on judgement day. But frankly, I don't think there's enough information on the matter to make an iron-clad, logically definitive proof either way, much less that you have even availed yourself of all the information that there is. Furthermore, that defense is unlikely to pursuade God inasmuch as many very rational people over the centuries have come to a starkly different conclusion than you . Simply dismissing all these people as irrational or prone to "memes", (as Zhavric says) may satisfy you, but I suggest you ask yourself if you honestly believe that the true reason for your differing conclusion is that you possess some superior insight, or methodology that has eluded some of the greatest thinkers in history or that you are uniquely resistance to the tendency to favor arguments that are consistent with what you want to believe.

Now you may have read that last paragraph and satisfied yourself that I have made a shamelessly fallacious appeal to the authority of others, and you are probably right. But don't allow my logical blunder to prevent you from being honest with yourself.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Fonceai @Heehaws What does it matter what I want out of life? I wrote that you can achieve those things through non-Biblical means, thus showing you that statement is religiously tilted and flawed.

I'm not sure what you mean by non-Biblical means. I don't know how you can live "Biblically" unless you put on a robe and go back 2000 years or so.

The Gospels do paint a picture of a pretty decent guy. I view Jesus' life as an example to us. He was kind, forgiving, justice-minded, reflective, hard-working. He was also willing to go out on a limb to stand up for those who had no voice in their society (women, prostitutes, tax collectors, the sick and dying, etc.). It would seem to me from the stories of his life that he was someone who lived a Godly life. He demonstrated those things I call fruits of the spirit.

I asked what you wanted in life because you said "Your fruits mean jack shit to someone who doesn't need to hide behind prayer to get what they want out of life."

Now if what someone wants out of life is a nice car, you're probably right.

But if someone wants to feel truly joyful, from what is inside them and around them rather than what they can buy or what other people are willing to do for them, then we can talk.

For some people, having a successful life means being aggressive in the business world, building a pretty solid portfolio and retiring at an early age. There's nothing wrong with this -- more power to them.

For others, once they get what they think they have wanted, they find their lives lacking. There really is more to life than posessions and being entertained. Maybe what they're looking for is a deep peace. Or an unbreakable, unconditional foundation of love in their lives. These are not attainable by financial success. They're attained by a different kind of journey. Maybe they're attained by seeking a relationship with the source of their creation, the universe, with God, with whatever your language compels you to call it.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: ImAlwaysRight You've asked this paradoxically concieved question half a dozen times and I think people have made a good faith effort to give their best answers without taking the bait and falling into the trap of presuming to speak for God - yet you keep belaboring this question.

No one has yet provided a reasonable answer.

In other words, it is by Gods grace that he saves anyone he so chooses. According to this passage, the major criteria(if not the sole criteria) on which he makes this choice is whether or not we have faith that he will. Since, logically, this Faith in a Savior presupposes that you believe the Savior exists in the first place(not to mention that you are in need of salvation), then I'd say that according to Ephesians 2:8 there's no reason at this point to feel any assurance about being "saved" from this firey doom you don't believe in.

So, God chooses who is not to be saved? Does that not bother you?

If you want me to take a stab at it, I'd guess that perhaps these are people who, despite their lack of knowledge of God's law, their conscience compels them to suppress their sinful nature and live according to God's righteousness that he has "written into everyone's heart" or who God recognizes has spent their lives genuinely seeking God and his righteousness.

So, Ghandi would be ok?

You say you have thoroughly studied the matter and have come to the rational conclusion that it's all a bunch of hooey. Presumably, this is the case you would make for yourself on judgement day. But frankly, I don't think there's enough information on the matter to make an iron-clad, logically definitive proof either way, much less that you have even availed yourself of all the information that there is.

The quantity of available information is effectively infinite, because it is more than a single person could ever process. However, the more I read the more I become turned off by it. The conservative Christian metaphysical belief just seems so damn loony.

Think about it. Your concept of God created everyone with a propensity for sin, and then punishes them forever when they carry out that propensity, rather than helping them reform after they have died. How does that make sense?

Plus, there is a serious lack of supporting evidence. Claims do not make something true.

Furthermore, that defense is unlikely to pursuade God inasmuch as many very rational people over the centuries have come to a starkly different conclusion than you.

Doesn't that tell you something right there? Some rational people conclude one thing, and other rational people conclude something else. If God really wanted us to believe, couldn't he have written the Bible so that all rational people would see it as true? If people saw it as true, they would be able to make a free an informed decision. By making the Bible not very believable, God is intentionally denying heaven to millions who would otherwise choose him of their own free will. See, enabling informed decision making does not reduce free will, it enhances it. God could still make all the facts plain and clear, and then allow people to make their own choices. Forcing people to guess at the right answer, and then eternally punishing them when they guess wrong is just psycho.

Simply dismissing all these people as irrational or prone to "memes", (as Zhavric says) may satisfy you, but I suggest you ask yourself if you honestly believe that the true reason for your differing conclusion is that you possess some superior insight, or methodology that has eluded some of the greatest thinkers in history or that you are uniquely resistance to the tendency to favor arguments that are consistent with what you want to believe.

The true reason is that I find a psycho hateful god of torture to be very hard to believe. My conscience recoils at the thought of God's reality being so fundamentally evil. Yours should too.

I still wanna cover my bets though. Why can't I accept Jesus, while not believing in him? Does the Bible actually say that belief in Jesus' divinity is mandatory, or does it say something else that has been interpreted to mean that?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: prejudged_Fire " Nowhere does the bible say that Jesus and God are the same. When Jesus says "The Father and I are one" he's not talking literally. When two people marry, they are said to be "one" as in they are in unison with each other, not physically the same being. You said that the whole son thing is a way to explain that he was made from God. If he was made from God, how is he God himself?

If the extremely explicit statement of "The Father and I are one" is not to be taken literally, then why should something saying, in effect, "I am God's son" be taken literally. We appear to be at an impass.

By the way, I didn't mean to say "made" (our language probably isn't adequate for this discussion) I meant that He is God Incarnate, in the flesh.

And, yes, the concept of multiple gods capable of reproduction is extremely pagan, Christianity is descended from Judaism and related to Islam because we all believe in the same ONE God. To believe in more than one god is breaking off from Christianity and the Abrahamic religions entirely and starting your own religion. I have no real problem with that, as long as you don't go around telling others that that's what they believe.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Think about it. Your concept of God created everyone with a propensity for sin, and then punishes them forever when they carry out that propensity, rather than helping them reform after they have died. How does that make sense? ... The true reason is that I find a psycho hateful god of torture to be very hard to believe. My conscience recoils at the thought of God's reality being so fundamentally evil. Yours should too.

Here Protestants and Catholics branch off, so don't think I speak for everybody. Also I'm not trying to convert you, you just don't seem to understand what Christians really believe.

God did not create us with sin, (Genesis, try reading it). He created everything essentially good. He does, however, love us so much that He lets us have free will to choose His way or reject it (sin). We often choose to reject it. He has tried to reform us ;the prophets, Jesus, and other sources were sent for this exact purpose. However, many of us still ignore Him.

I find the concept of a vengeful god equally disturbing. God is, in fact, trying desperately to save us. He knows that only He can lead us to Salvation.

I would explain how God could damn us to Hell in this way:

A mother tells her child that if he runs in the road he will get hit, and he does it anyway and is killed. Just because what the Mother said would happen happened doesn't mean she wanted it to happen. She wasn't telling her son not to disobey because she didn't want Him to go in the road. She instead wanted him to avoid the consequences of this decision.

God does not wish hell upon us. To the contrary, He is trying to save us from it. If you choose sin, as a consequence, you choose Hell. God doesn't want us to go to hell, but if we choose it, He respects our decision.