Dear Jesus: A letter to Jesus from a nonbeliever

[Heehoos]

What about the present? Is it possible to be saved in the present? To be "healed and made whole" which is the definition of salvation (salvus)? I find it interesting that so many Christians and people in general separate our lives now from the rest of eternity (whatever eternity is).

All creation is based on time and space (time being a physical property of our universe). If there is a Creator of time and space, then that creator would be outside of the sphere of time and space, would He/She not? If heaven is going to God, and Hell is any absense of that, then what exactly is Eternity if there is no Time?

[prejudged_Fire]

No, you're "letter" to Jesus does not get you "saved". You gain God's approval by doing His will and obeying his laws, not by writing a letter to His son. (Yes, Jesus is His son, not God Himself)

Heehoos, I don't exactly understand your question but I can say this: Not everyone who gains God's approval is going to Heaven. Some specially chosen are going to Heaven (these people are called the "annointed ones"). The rest are going to remain here on earth, only they will be made perfect, just like Adam and Eve were before they sinned. Up until Adam and Eve sinned, they lived the way God originally wanted mankind to. They were perfect and they were to live forever and fill the earth. This is the way we will live if we gain His approval and we are not part of the annointed.

Note, I don't use the term "saved" as this causes confusion. When someone says "saved", they think of getting Jesus' aproval and thats that until they die and go to Heaven. This is not what I believe. Not only this, I believe that once someone get's God's approval, they must maintain that relationship with Him. For example, you can't get "saved" and then go and murder someone and still expect to go to Heaven.

[Fonceai]

How does one know what God's will is?

Seems rather stupid on God's part to smugly sit on high and say, "Do what I tell you and I'll let you come to Heaven" and then never actually tell you what to do.

Any answer you give, by the way, is making shit up. No one knows God's will. Otherwise you'd be God.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: prejudged_Fire No, you're "letter" to Jesus does not get you "saved". You gain God's approval by doing His will and obeying his laws, not by writing a letter to His son. (Yes, Jesus is His son, not God Himself)

Is it against God's laws to not believe that Jesus is his one true son and our savior?

[Heehoos]

That would be the Jewish view of the situation, yes. But in the Christian faith, the idea is that Jesus Christ redeemed humanity. Paul says in his letters that we are saved through faith, not through the Law. We consequently come to live lawful lives because we live faithfully in Christ. It's not supposed to be the other way around.

That's supposed to be a Christian perspective, anyway.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Fonceai How does one know what God's will is? Seems rather stupid on God's part to smugly sit on high and say, "Do what I tell you and I'll let you come to Heaven" and then never actually tell you what to do. Any answer you give, by the way, is making shit up. No one knows God's will. Otherwise you'd be God.

You're right -- it is impossible for us to know, moment to moment, what is God's will. Is it God's will that a baby is born with a defect that will affect its entire life? Perhaps. Because we don't know what the long term implications of that child and its defect are to that life, and to those around it.

However, in daily life, we're told that if we are living in alignment with God and Christ's teachings, we will manifest the fruits of the spirit which are: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. I find it difficult to argue this with regard to any faith.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Heehoos love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

I can get each of those through doing the exact opposite of Biblical teachings.

[Heehoos]

I don't mean the commandments. Although I'm not sure how you would find kindness in murdering someone or faithfulness in committing adultery.

I said what Jesus taught. All in all, Jesus' teachings were very peaceful and loving. They outlined a healthy lifestyle.

[Fonceai]

I didn't say the commandments either.

I said Jesus' teachings.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Heehoos That would be the Jewish view of the situation, yes. But in the Christian faith, the idea is that Jesus Christ redeemed humanity. Paul says in his letters that we are saved through faith, not through the Law. We consequently come to live lawful lives because we live faithfully in Christ. It's not supposed to be the other way around. That's supposed to be a Christian perspective, anyway.

I do not possess faith that Jesus is the savior. The Bible does not convince me of this. Apologetic arguments do not convince me of this. They all fall terribly short.

So...

If I can only be saved through belief, but I do not believe, then how can I be saved?

[Gods_Mercenary]

The Bible shouldn't convince you of anything, that's the whole point of faith.

[Heehoos]

Well if you don't believe Jesus is the savior, what's the point? That's the hinge of the argument.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Fonceai I didn't say the commandments either. I said Jesus' teachings.

Can you give an example of how you would demonstrate the fruits of the spirit by living opposite to Jesus' teachings? I'm just curious since you said it.

[prejudged_Fire]

Jesus is not God. Jesus is His son. If he were God, how could he have prayed to God the night before he died? Was he praying to himself? No, they are two seperate beings. Jesus also said that "the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). If he is the father, is he greater than himself? The bible also says that God created Jesus. Did God create himself?? I think not.

You learn God's will by studying the bible. He tells you exactly what his will is in the bible. "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19,20) This is God's will. For us as humans to teach everyone about God and about what he has in store for us in the future. But first, in order to do that, we need to learn everything we can about God and Jesus. We need to learn as much as we can about the Bible. So basically, study and learn the bible and it's teachings, follow them and live your life by their guidelines, and preach to other's about what you have learned. The hard part is finding the right religion because they all teach wrong about the bible except one.. I've found one that, so far in the years I've been studying with them, I've never seen one contradiction in what they teach.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Almost all traditional christian Churches believe that Jesus was God Incarnate, not an actual son of a greater god. (that would not be monotheistic, but instead very Pagan.) The whole son thing is a convenient way to explain that Jesus "was made from God" the way a son springs from a father.

Jesus was a human (as well as God, Whoa, almost makes you want to be atheist, doesn't it), he could pray, be scared, and have doubt. How Jesus could pray to himself is arguable (and a Mystery), but the fact that He was not literally the son of God is not. (if you put any stock in the Christian Bible, that is, if not, why are you reading this?)

[Fonceai]

"Fruits of the spirit"?

That's quite lofty.

Through violence I can ensure peace.

Through violence I can secure money that buys happiness.

Through money I can buy love.

Each human is different. Some find solace in those things I listed above through violence or money. That doesn't make it any less real for them.

Your fruits mean jack shit to someone who doesn't need to hide behind prayer to get what they want out of life.

[Zhavric]

You've had plenty of time to post to the other thread.

Quote by: Fonceai Which is? Are you agreeing that "Jesus is the Messiah" is memetic? Or are you trying to tell me that my reason is memetic? The first is correct. The second is something you don't know.

I don't need a mental telepathy hat to know a meme when I see one. If you have another explanation for why intelligent grown adults will completely 180 their ideas of logic & reason on specific emotionally charged claims, I'm all ears.

I don't want to resolve it to anyone else's satisfaction, because I'm not trying to convince anyone that my personal belief is correct. I'm not that stupid.

Your belief is irrational and based on demonstrably false claims. Why hold to X when X is false?

Because nothing was actually written one way or the other, we can't say that a lack of writing about Jesus means he never existed.

And this is how I know that your belief in Jesus is memetic. When we're given a set of claims as outlandish as the ones in the gospels, we don't conclude them "probably true" (or the like) if there's no evidence. We do the opposite UNLESS we have an emotionally charged attachment to the idea.

Can you imagine someone telling you with a straight face, "Well, there's no evidence proving or disproving magic garden fairies, so they're probably real." ???

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Sound familiar?

All too familiar. It's the same tired straw man that theists like to present when confronted with argumentation proving claims counter to the memes they hold. Take a look at the thread linked to in my sig and you'll find that it's a lot more than "absence of evidence".

Consider this as well.

In general, no inferences can be drawn from a lack of evidence. This is often summed up in epigrams such as "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." In some circumstances, though, the absence of evidence can be used as the base for an inference.

For example, we can usually believe that a railroad timetable is complete, which is to say that all departures and arrivals for a given location are listed. In this case, the following argument is valid (and not an appeal to ignorance).

1. There is no arrival listed at this station in the next hour (suppressed premise)
2. Any scheduled arrival would be listed
3. Therefore, there is no scheduled arrival at this station in the next hour

Thus when we have an event that SHOULD be monumental / recorded / earth-shattering and we instead see business as usual, we do not conclude that it "probably happened".

I agree with you that if he was so significant then it's strange that no one wrote about him. But when you consider everything about that part of the world at the time, it's understandable how he might have slipped from the notice of the educated world at the time.

Given the claims made in the gospels, there's absolutely NO WAY that could have happened unless he wasn't real.

Exactly. I believe that regardless of your facts. They can be true or false. To me, that's not important. I've written it before that I perceive the Gospels as fables and parables. They teach a lesson. In my eyes, the Bible should sit on the shelf next to Aesop's Fables and Grimm's. In fact, on my daughter's bookshelf, that's exactly where I put her kiddie Bible. I never once believed in the historical accuracy of those stories. I believe in the lessons of them, as you wrote in the quote above. Much like what was said in the movie Dogma, I don't believe in the scripture, I believe in the idea. Since I'm pretty sure you understand where I'm coming from, now, do you see what I mean about believing in Jesus without insisting he was real?

We differ here in two places:

1) If you don't believe that Jesus died for your sins, there's really no merit to Christianity. You don't need it. There's better ways to learn to be nice to people.

2) The message isn't that nice. It's exclusive. It's intollerant towards other religions, gays, and others. It's demeaning to people in general who are seen as being "sinners".

In short, I believe that moderates like yourself have invented a romanticized version of Christianity that's too lightweight for your more zealous bretheren and not honest enough for skeptics.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Jagged Foncai, i actually sort of respect your view of the bible, i mean, more-than-tolerate-it-respect hahah.

Jagged, just for the sake of clarity in all future posts...

Why do you always sign off with the little pissed off face? At first I took it as meaning something annoyed you about the poster you were responding to, but now I'm not sure.

I know that's "OT," mods, but it might help understanding future posts here, and elsewhere.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary The Bible shouldn't convince you of anything, that's the whole point of faith.

What is faith? What is its point? I really and truly do not understand it.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Heehoos Well if you don't believe Jesus is the savior, what's the point? That's the hinge of the argument.

The point is that the Christian belief system says I am to be damned, which could be avoided if I believed.

On the off chance that the Christians are correct in their beliefs, I would sure like to avoid eternal damnation. It sounds very unpleasant. Given that I do not believe, how can I avoid this unpleasantness?