Dear Jesus: A letter to Jesus from a nonbeliever

[McAiden]

I haven't visited this site lately and haven't read the over-500 responses to your letter to Jesus, but will give my statements anyhow:

Quote by: Captain Chaos Dear Jesus: I do not actually believe that you are the one true son of God. This is not to say that I am certain that you are not such an entity, it is just that I find the source of this claim (the Bible) a bit hard to swallow. The Bible makes claims about things like eternal torture, and punishing unborn children for the sins of their fathers and ancestors. This is just crazy talk, and thus rather difficult to believe. I also would be more inclined to believe the Bible if Biblical prophecies didn't always fall into one form of scam or another. Imagine, for example, a prophet actually made a prophecy like "Roughly 2000 years from now, a great tidal wave will devastate coastlines in the Indian Ocean." Then, after it happened, I would be rather impressed. The lack of prophecies that are hard to explain by either scams or natural means is a big problem, if the Bible is supposed to be divinely inspired. Jesus did not say he was the 'one true son of God'. He came here to let us know who and what we are - divine beings in human form. He tried to tell us that he is an example of who and what we are, the same as he. And, most important, the Bible is written by mere men who were not necessarily 'divinely inspired.' Some NT scripture was changed while some is simple fabrication There were 30 books written but only four (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were published in this 'bible.' So, that said, I find myself unconvinced of your divinity. However, I would like to cover my bets, on the off chance that you are, in fact, the one true son of God, and on the off chance that your pop punishes nonbelievers like me with an eternity of torture. Jesus spoke of the "loving father" within him and said this father is also within us. We are all sons of God! and are capable of the 'miracles' shown by him. (even more so, he said) Jesus never mentioned anything about 'eternal torture' for anyone So...Even though I lack belief in your divinity, I happily accept you into my heart, if you are a being of love and kindness (which I admit is a bit hard to rectify with the whole eternally burning in a lake of fire thing). You don't really need to accept Jesus as anything but a being of love and kindness. He, advanced soul that he is, accepted a terrible death to let us know he is with us always. We just need to believe that. Yours with hope, Before Jesus, there was no hope, nor love. Captain Chaos (JDL) P.S. Sorry about all the disturbingly offensive jokes I have made at your expense. Nothing personal, just trying to shock a few folks out of their religious stupors.

Jesus himself spoke about "religious stupors" of the religions of his time on earth, he called them vipers and hippocrits.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Zhavric Are you okay with picking and choosing what you believe should be followed and what shouldn't? If you answer yes, then I'd ask why bother calling yourself a Christian at all?

Because I have an education. The primary, first-and-foremost difference between Christianity and other religions is that Christianity believes Jesus was the Messiah, and not just a prophet.

In the most literal sense, that makes me a Christian.

People also misunderstand the term "Christian" because in reality, Christianity isn't a religion. Baptist or Catholic or Protestant are religions.

So, to reiterate, I am Christian because I believe Jesus was the Messiah. That idea that Jesus was the Messiah is memetic. But my reason for believing it is not.

But I neither follow nor agree with any Christian religion. I think they are all misguided.

Quote by: Zhavric You can debate religion when specific religions make historical claims. Historical claims enjoy no exemption from scrutiny and a religion based on alleged historic events which did not transpire is open to scrutiny.

That is correct. But you were trying to prove my opinion wrong, and my opinion was exactly what you just wrote in those sentences I quoted. You're trying to prove me wrong by using facts I agree with. Those facts do not counter my personal belief. I hold my personal belief to be true for me, and me alone. I live my life based on that belief. In no way do I expect others to share it, agree with it, or learn it. I only expect that others understand that I have a belief that is mine.

As you've written before, I am very specific about wording used.

I spent the time and money to learn what words mean before I use them. If people on this board don't realize Christianity is not a religion, that's their lack of education. If they reject what I tell them about what the word actually means, then that's ignorance. Theology and Divinity classes taught me the explanation.

That's why your arguing with me is purely useless; because I agree that there are contradictions but still have personal reasons for believing. I can never show you those personal reasons, so the only thing you can do is simply understand that for an educated person to still believe in God (because that's what this really boils down to) it must have been something very powerful to have happened in their life.

And you can show me all the facts you want. You'll get an approving nod and a, "Yup, that's a pretty good piece of evidence right there" but you'll never get more than that.

[Captain Chaos]

To McAiden...

I am pretty sure people had both hope and love before Jesus.


But thanks for your kind reply. You are obviously a more enlightened form of Christian.

[Kuroko]

To Captain.

First, I must say the Bible is confusing, it's confusing nature is part of it's way of working it's purpose. Pain, suffering, torture this is the existance of hell, such environments are possible on earth, hell is the same as those environments because they both stem from the same root.

It isn't such a 'stretch' when the closest words to explain existance in this place are made in comparison to earthly standards.

The word was meant for those who want to hear it, there will be people who seek it but thier want is a selfish one, truely wanting the word will enable the hearing of the true meanings behind them, not the other way arround.

Imagine the bible as a step, you remain on a middle step and the bible is a step in one direction, how many times do we study a single step we take.
Then how many times do we take advantage of a step and it's existance.

You remain parched on one such step, and you know of no other steps.

You have an idea where one direction take you, and where the other one takes you, but you are uncertain.

Suddenly being on a middle step on a flight of stairs is hard to imagine but when you take into context just how long it has taken you to study the step you are on now you realise the task ahead of you.

Studying the next step is the wisest choice one can make, one of your steps is of faith, the other is a step of comfort, it is often easier to travel down a flight of steps then up.

I am sorry for my words Captain, I don't mean to add to your confusion, however you asked a question, if you truely wanted the answer, then truely look for it, it was never hidden, in fact, after the first step the second step often gives you a better viewing angle of the second.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai So, to reiterate, I am Christian because I believe Jesus was the Messiah. That idea that Jesus was the Messiah is memetic. But my reason for believing it is not.

Oh, absolutely it is. That's what memes do: they cause us to believe specific claims with strong emotional appeals that we may not otherwise believe. Christians will scoff at the idea of individuals witnessing a UFO, but the idea of people witnessing magic 2000 years ago if far more appealing and, to them, "rational".

That is correct. But you were trying to prove my opinion wrong, and my opinion was exactly what you just wrote in those sentences I quoted. You're trying to prove me wrong by using facts I agree with. Those facts do not counter my personal belief. I hold my personal belief to be true for me, and me alone. I live my life based on that belief. In no way do I expect others to share it, agree with it, or learn it. I only expect that others understand that I have a belief that is mine.

I see where you're trying to go with this and it still feels like a cop-out. If you were a buddhist, there wouldn't be a problem because you could say, "Meditiation works for me and though there's evidence nothing's going on, it makes me feel better." Buddhism is inherently internal. The problem you face with Christianity... that you haven't resolved to my satisfaction... is the notion that Jesus is the Messiah (implying actual personhood which is demonstrably false) and at the same time this very personal meditation-like "experience". These two things reconcile not unlike "married bachelors".

That's at best.

At worst... well, let me ask you this. Assume for a moment that everything I posted in the other thread is correct & verified (which it is) and that Jesus never existed / was fabricated as a way to "re-judify" Judea / has absolutely ZERO truth to its origins / etc. Would you still consider yourself a Christian? Would you still belive that Jesus "exists"? If so why and in what format? If your answer is like Santa (no, I'm not being insulting) in the sense of a tale of morality & generosity, then we're fine...

[Captain Chaos]

so...

Zhav and Fonce...

how about a Jesus Memes thread - I will even start it!

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Zhavric Oh, absolutely it is.

Which is? Are you agreeing that "Jesus is the Messiah" is memetic?

Or are you trying to tell me that my reason is memetic?

The first is correct. The second is something you don't know.

Quote by: Zhavric I see where you're trying to go with this and it still feels like a cop-out.

It's not a cop-out. Where you're stumbling is here:

Quote by: Zhavric The problem you face with Christianity... that you haven't resolved to my satisfaction... is the notion that Jesus is the Messiah

I don't want to resolve it to anyone else's satisfaction, because I'm not trying to convince anyone that my personal belief is correct. I'm not that stupid.

Quote by: Zhavric (implying actual personhood which is demonstrably false)

More like "circumstantially inconclusive".

Because nothing was actually written one way or the other, we can't say that a lack of writing about Jesus means he never existed.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Sound familiar?

I agree with you that if he was so significant then it's strange that no one wrote about him. But when you consider everything about that part of the world at the time, it's understandable how he might have slipped from the notice of the educated world at the time.

Quote by: Zhavric Would you still consider yourself a Christian? Would you still belive that Jesus "exists"? If so why and in what format? If your answer is like Santa (no, I'm not being insulting) in the sense of a tale of morality & generosity, then we're fine...

Exactly.

I believe that regardless of your facts.

They can be true or false. To me, that's not important.

I've written it before that I perceive the Gospels as fables and parables. They teach a lesson.

In my eyes, the Bible should sit on the shelf next to Aesop's Fables and Grimm's. In fact, on my daughter's bookshelf, that's exactly where I put her kiddie Bible.

I never once believed in the historical accuracy of those stories. I believe in the lessons of them, as you wrote in the quote above.

Much like what was said in the movie Dogma, I don't believe in the scripture, I believe in the idea.

Since I'm pretty sure you understand where I'm coming from, now, do you see what I mean about believing in Jesus without insisting he was real?

[Fonceai]

@Captain Chaos

My post above probably resolves anything about Jesus Memes.

For once, I think Zhavric will understand where I'm coming from.

That you can completely believe that nothing about Jesus is true, but still believe in the message behind the stories.

A Jesus Memes thread would just be bait for people who want to insist that Jesus is universally true instead of the more sensible ones who say that Jesus is personally true. It would result in more religious bickering.

[Captain Chaos]

Right...

But nothing will convince Zhavric of anything. You know that.

So....

Zhavric...

Will you do me the kindness of responding to Fonce in that thread, rather than this one.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Zhavric Truth is absolute. What is true for me is true for you and what is false for me is false for you..

Is there anyone in this world that you love? If so, can you prove it?
Can you prove a memory from 10 years ago -- your perception of an incident if it differs from another's perspective?

Can you provide physical evidence that God does NOT exist? (although I'm sure you'll point me to another thread, maybe you could say yes or no)...

Not EVERYTHING is a provable certainty.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Heehoos Is there anyone in this world that you love? If so, can you prove it?

Of course I can prove it. Love is romanticized and subjective, but this doesn't mean it's some sort of esoteric magic. Love is an emotion and emotions are thoughts with physiological attachments to them. Love can be proven and observed and no, that doesn't cheapen it in the slightest. I don't need to make up imaginary friends / magic / or other sillyness to feel the full range of human emotions.

Can you prove a memory from 10 years ago -- your perception of an incident if it differs from another's perspective?

As someone who's devoted their life to a book that wasn't written until decades after the alleged events had taken place, is that really a question you want to go asking?

Can you provide physical evidence that God does NOT exist?

I don't need to. Theists need to prove god exists. God is not an emotion or a memory.

EDIT: Also, none of this has ANYTHING to do with truth being absolute. If I love someone, I love them. Other people may not love that person, but that doesn't change my love for them. Regardless of my memory, certain events have happened to me while others have not. My inability to remember an event doesn't cause the event to have not happened. You cannot change truth without changing the context.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Fonceai @Captain Chaos My post above probably resolves anything about Jesus Memes. For once, I think Zhavric will understand where I'm coming from. That you can completely believe that nothing about Jesus is true, but still believe in the message behind the stories. A Jesus Memes thread would just be bait for people who want to insist that Jesus is universally true instead of the more sensible ones who say that Jesus is personally true. It would result in more religious bickering.

Anytime you want to jump in on that other one...

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Nothing I say is absolutely true. It is a nuisance to constantly use qualifiers in every sentence. So, for future reference: I am a doubter of all things, including my own beliefs.

Chuckle.

Seems we have much in common, Captain.

[Jack]

Since this "letter" is a sort of prayer, I have a question about prayer in general.

The bible tells us that god knows when a sparrow falls. So evidently he keeps track of everything that happens. So why doesn't he answer practical prayers like, "God, where are my keys?" or "Dear lord, which is the quickest freeway to take back home?"

If he's so concerned with everything you say and do, why can't he use all that surveillance for something useful?

[Jagged]

Foncai, i actually sort of respect your view of the bible, i mean, more-than-tolerate-it-respect hahah.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Jagged more-than-tolerate-it-respect

How's that?

[another day]

Quote by: Isherwood Since this "letter" is a sort of prayer, I have a question about prayer in general. The bible tells us that god knows when a sparrow falls. So evidently he keeps track of everything that happens. So why doesn't he answer practical prayers like, "God, where are my keys?" or "Dear lord, which is the quickest freeway to take back home?" If he's so concerned with everything you say and do, why can't he use all that surveillance for something useful?

Sorry isherwood, but this is a pretty stupid question. Why waste your time with silly questions like this? It's pretty obvious this isn't going to make anyone question their faith and don't even act like you are actually sincerely expecting an answer in asking that question.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Isherwood Since this "letter" is a sort of prayer, I have a question about prayer in general. The bible tells us that god knows when a sparrow falls. So evidently he keeps track of everything that happens. So why doesn't he answer practical prayers like, "God, where are my keys?" or "Dear lord, which is the quickest freeway to take back home?" If he's so concerned with everything you say and do, why can't he use all that surveillance for something useful?

Because your life is yours to live, not his.

[prejudged_Fire]

Ok, I'm new to this thread and I haven't taken the time to read every post. However, I'm replying to the letter in the beginning. One, not all religions teach that you will burn in Hell. Hell does not exist. Translators got the word "hell" from the Greek word Haides (thats spelled in English of course) and the Hebrew equivelent Sheol. When translated, these mean "The common grave of mankind". So how did we get the word "hell" meaning some firey place of tourment filled with demons and the Devil?? Well, Jesus used illustrations using a place called Gehenna. Gehenna was a place outside of ancient Jerusalem where they burned trash and the bodies of dead criminals and people who didn't "deserve" a proper burial. The fire was always going and they constantly fed it. Jesus used an example saying that the wicked would be "pitched into Gehenna"*, however he didnt mean literally. Anything that went into Gehenna didn't come back out. He was using it as an example of eternal destruction meaning the wicked would be destroyed forever not burned forever in "hell". Jesus also said that "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all."* If the dead are conscious of nothing, how would they be burned forever with tourment and pain? Not only this, but in Revelation, the bible says that "war broke out in Heaven."* Michael (the name referring to Jesus while he's in Heaven) and his angels against the Devil and his. Then it says that "the one called devil and Satan"* was cast down to earth, along with his demons. This is where Satan resides today. He is "roaming about [the earth] like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone"*. He is not in "hell" he is dwelling right here among us.

* These are all Scriptures taken from the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. Quotes may vary from translation to translation, but you can look them up in your own copy of the bible and they will say the same thing. "Gehenna", "Sheol", and "Haides" may be replaced with "hell" in your copy. However, as explained, translators made a mistake in doing this. I haven't cited where these can be found because I'm actually at school right now and I can't remember them off the top of my head. But, if you'd like, I can come back later and show you where these can be found.

[Captain Chaos]

I have found that Christians fall into three main interpretations of eternal damnation:

1)Eternal torture
2)Eternal abandonment
3)Eternal death

So, regardless of which of these three you believe in - does my letter to Jesus get me saved?