religion and reasoning

[Cephus]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Exactly, so let theists enjoy their lives in their own way, which is just as pointless as yours.

We do. Frankly, I don't give a damn what you believe, you're more than welcome to believe any silly thing that pops into your head, so long as you give me the same respect.

That means stop trying to convert people to your religion and stop trying to force your religion on everyone through force of law.

Deal?

[Gods_Mercenary]

I've never done this, nor have I ever voted for a law that does this, although we are free to attempt to convert anyone we want, not that Jehovah's witnesses aren't annoying.

This si not to deny that theists are known to do this, you just can't lump them all together and say "all religion is bad because of him him ..." Feel free to rag on specific theists or even specific denominations, however.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I've never done this, nor have I ever voted for a law that does this, although we are free to attempt to convert anyone we want, not that Jehovah's witnesses aren't annoying.

Just because you haven't done it (and thank you for being reasonable), that doesn't mean that Christians aren't well known for using political power to force their beliefs on everyone else. Certainly there are some denominations that are more guilty of this than others and they should be decried for their efforts.

The simple fact is though, if you want to be free to believe as you wish, then you have to respect other people's rights to the same thing. That means leave them alone. If they want to be converted, they'll come find you.

[Kuldeep]

Without going through the repetitive discussion again and again, let me analyse the title " Religion and the reasoning" extempore and try to find a suitable relation between the two, as:

Most of the religions do not talk reasoning but have set some beliefs and faiths as their basis. Coming to volly of questions from Athena

What is the reason or cause of that? Why should it be this way? How does it happen? Why do we need God?

Her pronouns that and it probably are Religion only, as I could understand. To best of my knowledge, no religion which-so-ever, it has never reasoned out the need of God as an answer to her final question!!!! No religion has reasoned the need of creation of this universe and its contents.

Well, the fact is reasoning only occurs in the minds of all animals, human beings in particular. Religion and reasons content wise are heading in the opposite direction. However, help of religions could be taken to reason out anything we want to. In fact, we want to reason out everything we come across around us. We keep on struggling to reason out each and everything but for that our limitations of senses, we have limits in our understanding to reason out everything. We are not able to know yet that:

Who we are actually?

To my mind, we are something which have emotions, feeling, think, laugh and also reason but still, for certain do not who we are basically.

When ultimately one has to die, why at all we get born?

We like to enjoy, I suppose!!!

What is the ultimate purpose of life?

To be happy , peaceful and satistied!!!!!

How luck, fate and destiny etc are fixed?

Our own actions which fix their reaction in return, I may be wrong.

Why this Universe exist?

No specific reason! We can say reasonless. We can look at it as fun!!!

So on and so forth!!!!---------There can be many such misteries which we are not able to reason out. But again, reasoning is a very useful tool available in our minds which help us to reason one mistery after the other scientifically again with reasons only!!!! :)

Concluding, I however still feel that All the Religions too must have developed based on reasoning only to start with, but over the passage of time, the real reasoning has withered away and what remained was reasonless faiths and beliefs.

Dear Theists, excuse me but you have to bear with me the reasoned fact about religions in general!!!!!!!!!!:(

[Athena]

Quote by: Kuldeep Without going through the repetitive discussion again and again, let me analyse the title " Religion and the reasoning" extempore and try to find a suitable relation between the two, as: Most of the religions do not talk reasoning but have set some beliefs and faiths as their basis. Coming to volly of questions from Athena Her pronouns that and it probably are Religion only, as I could understand. To best of my knowledge, no religion which-so-ever, it has never reasoned out the need of God as an answer to her final question!!!! No religion has reasoned the need of creation of this universe and its contents. Well, the fact is reasoning only occurs in the minds of all animals, human beings in particular. Religion and reasons content wise are heading in the opposite direction. However, help of religions could be taken to reason out anything we want to. In fact, we want to reason out everything we come across around us. We keep on struggling to reason out each and everything but for that our limitations of senses, we have limits in our understanding to reason out everything. We are not able to know yet that: Who we are actually? To my mind, we are something which have emotions, feeling, think, laugh and also reason but still, for certain do not who we are basically. When ultimately one has to die, why at all we get born? We like to enjoy, I suppose!!! What is the ultimate purpose of life? To be happy , peaceful and satistied!!!!! How luck, fate and destiny etc are fixed? Our own actions which fix their reaction in return, I may be wrong. Why this Universe exist? No specific reason! We can say reasonless. We can look at it as fun!!! So on and so forth!!!!---------There can be many such misteries which we are not able to reason out. But again, reasoning is a very useful tool available in our minds which help us to reason one mistery after the other scientifically again with reasons only!!!! :) Concluding, I however still feel that All the Religions too must have developed based on reasoning only to start with, but over the passage of time, the real reasoning has withered away and what remained was reasonless faiths and beliefs. Dear Theists, excuse me but you have to bear with me the reasoned fact about religions in general!!!!!!!!!!:(

Thank you for clarifying. Oh yes, I do so believe religions begin with reasoning, and everything would be fine if they returned to reasoning, and dropped the cultural stuff that was mentioned in another thread. Yet I am uncomfortable with a defect of my culture, of which you renewed my awareness. For us 0 is a tool we use for math, not actually a concept. We call 0 a place holder. Kuldeep, would explain 0 for us?

Me thinks I can not think clearly, because my thoughts are like muddy water.
There is no 0, clear water, in my thinking. Does that make any sense:eek:

[ItsDarts]

Nope!

[Zinkovich]

There is no 0, clear water, in my thinking

How many ponies are on your desk right now?

You see, 0 has to do with there being "not", in a sense. For example, since there is not any money in my bank account, that means I have zero dollars. Quite simple, really.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Athena Thank you for clarifying. Oh yes, I do so believe religions begin with reasoning, and everything would be fine if they returned to reasoning, and dropped the cultural stuff that was mentioned in another thread. :

O.K. But would they drop cultural stuff? Not so easy!

Yet I am uncomfortable with a defect of my culture, of which you renewed my awareness.

I am happy it did some help to you!

For us 0 is a tool we use for math, not actually a concept. We call 0 a place holder. Kuldeep, would explain 0 for us? Me thinks I can not think clearly, because my thoughts are like muddy water. There is no 0, clear water, in my thinking. Does that make any sense:eek

You have already got two answers from ItsDarts & Zinkovich. Former says you do not make any sense by seeking the concept of zero (0) while the latter says zero is just nothing!

I think your thinking is not just clear water but better than those two persons. At least you have considered zero (0) as place holder.

The fact is I was tight lipped on reading your question:

Kuldeep, would explain 0 for us?

I simply wondered how you got up to think such a deep rooted question. I must admit you too think differently. I wrote 7 points about the conception of zero (0) yesterday but when I was about to submit, the page went into missing (zero, 0). Destiny wanted you to wait some more time to get that stuff. Now from my memory, I am reproducing what I wrote yestrday:


Now my share of explanation and concept of zero (0):

1. Just have a look on the shape of zero (0). It is a circular figure encompassing some area of space. Now imagine this space approaching infinity! It would be encompassing the whole IM (Infinite Matrix) to have infinite universes in it, as referred in your thread “What is God”. This can be also termed as Absolute Reality.

2. Now, if you pick up a point on the circumference of zero (0) and move either in clockwise or clockwise direction you would reach the same point. Such point could start anywhere on the circumference, depicting that it (IM) in the form of zero (0, circle) has no beginning or end. This also shows that IM is eternal. This finally concludes that there is no creation and its creator sort of thing, which most of the religion are propagating due to simple ignorance and illusion.:(

3. Taking mathematically extreme possibility, the minimum size of the space area encompassed by the zero (0) one would arrive at Nothing or absolute nothingness.

4. The fact is in reality the two extremes of IM represented by zero (0) are in resonance like two structures of benzene; meaning they are continuously getting inter converting from one stage to another. In simpler words we can “Nothing is Everything and Everything is Nothing”

5. I sure a common person would get confused with point no. 4 in particular. To take him out of this obvious confusion the same factual statement would be explained on the basis of observable parameter such as “Consciousness”

6. Like the possibility of infinite space sizes, we could have infinite levels of Consciousnesses. This consciousness exists in all living, non-living, material and non-material, conceivable and non-conceivable identities existing in whole of IM. The existence of consciousness is because of meta-physical minds. It is because of this meta-physical mind sense of duality is perceived.

7. Now in terms of consciousness, the absolute consciousness exists in everything (infinite identities) mentioned above. This Consciousness is obviously one and only one type. But due to getting enveloped by meta-physical mind infinite identities seems to exist separately. These infinite meta-physical minds reside in gross envelops of physical structures (bodies for living beings, materials for non-living things and energies for non-physical identities.

8. The minds (physical and meta-physical both) exist due to their natural property of Ego, meaning they feel they exist as a separate identity. It might be hard to imagine even dead stone has some level of Ego in its physical and meta-physical mind.

9. Humans (Saints and other great yogic personalities) have developed practices to raise the level of their consciousness. Overcoming the illusionary ego of meta-physical mind increases this level of consciousness and getting the feel of absolute consciousness.

10. The process of purification has unique effect on ego and corresponding consciousness. Mathematically speaking it has inverse or indirect proportion ratio relation. More the Ego, less the consciousness and less the ego more would be consciousness!!!

11. This tool of Ego and Consciousness fits well into unique identity zero (0) for its real and factual representation and explanation.

Again, mathematically speaking:

Stage 1. Ego approaching to Nothing or Nil, Consciousness would approach Infinity; thereby zero (0) in terms of Consciousness taking the stage of space of encompassing IM or ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS, ABSOLUTE REALTY Or, name it anything you like GOD or reverse of that DOG; does not matter to the fact I mentioned in that stage of no ego.
Ego = Nil Consciousness = infinity
Stage 2 Ego approaching Maximum (infinity) Consciousness minimum (Nil), thereby zero (0) in terms of Consciousness taking a stage of space nil (Nothing)
Ego = infinity Consciousness = Nil

Concluding statement zero (0) represents everything nothingness to everything!!!!!!!!:eek: :) ????????/

[Athena]

Quote by: Zinkovich How many ponies are on your desk right now? You see, 0 has to do with there being "not", in a sense. For example, since there is not any money in my bank account, that means I have zero dollars. Quite simple, really.

You silly, there are no ponies on my desk but it is cluttered with plenty of other stuff. And for goodness sake, I have a credit card, so there is never zero dollars, but rather negative numbers.

Now inside a black hole is there nothing, or all the stuff that is being sucked into the black hole?

Most important, how do I feel about being 0? I am still not comfortable with the idea.

[Jack]

Zero is such an interesting topic that several popular books have been written on the subject. Here's one.

For something that represents nothing, the zero has caused uproar in both the sciences and the churches. Who knew nothing could be so important?

[Athena]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary I've never done this, nor have I ever voted for a law that does this, although we are free to attempt to convert anyone we want, not that Jehovah's witnesses aren't annoying. This si not to deny that theists are known to do this, you just can't lump them all together and say "all religion is bad because of him him ..." Feel free to rag on specific theists or even specific denominations, however.

Why can't one say religion based on false beliefs is bad? Look, the Hebrews translated Sumerian stories of many gods and changed the stories in the process. This is how we get the creation and flood stories. Especially the Christian religion is a problem. It is very negative about humans and is a false concept of reality. This God who does things by whim is a myth, and this myth isn't serving us well.

[Athena]

Quote by: Kuldeep O.K. But would they drop cultural stuff? Not so easy! I am happy it did some help to you! You have already got two answers from ItsDarts & Zinkovich. Former says you do not make any sense by seeking the concept of zero (0) while the latter says zero is just nothing! I think your thinking is not just clear water but better than those two persons. At least you have considered zero (0) as place holder. The fact is I was tight lipped on reading your question: Kuldeep, would explain 0 for us? I simply wondered how you got up to think such a deep rooted question. I must admit you too think differently. I wrote 7 points about the conception of zero (0) yesterday but when I was about to submit, the page went into missing (zero, 0). Destiny wanted you to wait some more time to get that stuff. Now from my memory, I am reproducing what I wrote yestrday: Now my share of explanation and concept of zero (0): 1. Just have a look on the shape of zero (0). It is a circular figure encompassing some area of space. Now imagine this space approaching infinity! It would be encompassing the whole IM (Infinite Matrix) to have infinite universes in it, as referred in your thread “What is God”. This can be also termed as Absolute Reality. 2. Now, if you pick up a point on the circumference of zero (0) and move either in clockwise or clockwise direction you would reach the same point. Such point could start anywhere on the circumference, depicting that it (IM) in the form of zero (0, circle) has no beginning or end. This also shows that IM is eternal. This finally concludes that there is no creation and its creator sort of thing, which most of the religion are propagating due to simple ignorance and illusion.:( 3. Taking mathematically extreme possibility, the minimum size of the space area encompassed by the zero (0) one would arrive at Nothing or absolute nothingness. 4. The fact is in reality the two extremes of IM represented by zero (0) are in resonance like two structures of benzene; meaning they are continuously getting inter converting from one stage to another. In simpler words we can “Nothing is Everything and Everything is Nothing” 5. I sure a common person would get confused with point no. 4 in particular. To take him out of this obvious confusion the same factual statement would be explained on the basis of observable parameter such as “Consciousness” 6. Like the possibility of infinite space sizes, we could have infinite levels of Consciousnesses. This consciousness exists in all living, non-living, material and non-material, conceivable and non-conceivable identities existing in whole of IM. The existence of consciousness is because of meta-physical minds. It is because of this meta-physical mind sense of duality is perceived. 7. Now in terms of consciousness, the absolute consciousness exists in everything (infinite identities) mentioned above. This Consciousness is obviously one and only one type. But due to getting enveloped by meta-physical mind infinite identities seems to exist separately. These infinite meta-physical minds reside in gross envelops of physical structures (bodies for living beings, materials for non-living things and energies for non-physical identities. 8. The minds (physical and meta-physical both) exist due to their natural property of Ego, meaning they feel they exist as a separate identity. It might be hard to imagine even dead stone has some level of Ego in its physical and meta-physical mind. 9. Humans (Saints and other great yogic personalities) have developed practices to raise the level of their consciousness. Overcoming the illusionary ego of meta-physical mind increases this level of consciousness and getting the feel of absolute consciousness. 10. The process of purification has unique effect on ego and corresponding consciousness. Mathematically speaking it has inverse or indirect proportion ratio relation. More the Ego, less the consciousness and less the ego more would be consciousness!!! 11. This tool of Ego and Consciousness fits well into unique identity zero (0) for its real and factual representation and explanation. Again, mathematically speaking: Stage 1. Ego approaching to Nothing or Nil, Consciousness would approach Infinity; thereby zero (0) in terms of Consciousness taking the stage of space of encompassing IM or ABSOLUTE CONSCIOUSNESS, ABSOLUTE REALTY Or, name it anything you like GOD or reverse of that DOG; does not matter to the fact I mentioned in that stage of no ego. Ego = Nil Consciousness = infinity Stage 2 Ego approaching Maximum (infinity) Consciousness minimum (Nil), thereby zero (0) in terms of Consciousness taking a stage of space nil (Nothing) Ego = infinity Consciousness = Nil Concluding statement zero (0) represents everything nothingness to everything!!!!!!!!:eek: :) ????????/

Well I don't know if I understand everything you said, but it seems more reasonable to think in these terms than the biblical myths. Like for those of us who believe the universe began with a big bang, obviously everything came from nothing. There wasn't even hydrogen a basic element that comes before others. But one day a subatomic particle spun left instead of right, and boom there are the ingredients of the universe. I hope someone can correct me if I said something wrong. My memory of that explanation is vague.

Isn't it easier to comprehend a Zeus like God who created everything, than trying to remember the names of subatomic particles and if the spin that brought everything into being was a right or left spin, and then the evolution of elements, and formation of planets. Yet, I think if we understand reality realistically we can than contemplate consciousness on a new level, beyond our little egos, and hold a better understanding of an infinite God.

I very much appreciate your explanation of zero. I wonder how many attempted to understand it?

[Compugasm]

Quote by: Athena Isn't it easier to comprehend a Zeus like God who created everything, than trying to remember the names of subatomic particles...

Most definately. I just watched a program about recycling. They said the recycling program wasn't successful, because people had to separate items into blue/green bins. Once everything went into a single blue bin, the recycling doubled.

At first, I was amazed that people couldn't be bothered with two containers. But It's easier, it's convienient, we're stupid, and generally lazy. I guess that's why people simply assert that God said/did something. It's an easy solution.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Compugasm I guess that's why people simply assert that God said/did something. It's an easy solution.

That's exactly why it happens, it's easier to simply assert something than to discover the real reason behind it. God is a simple solution and a comfort, nothing more. It's an invention of convenience with no substance whatsoever.

[Masoom]

The Atheist position is indeed hopeless. The believer has hope. If there is a God and there is life after death then the believer wins. If there is no God or no life after death the believer loses nothing. On the other hand, the Atheist loses badly if he wakes up to discover himself in the afterlife. In sum, if there is no afterlife both the believer and the Atheist are safe. But if there is an afterlife then the Atheist loses. The only one who can possibly lose is the Atheist.

Now the Atheist can argue that if there is no afterlife then the believer has wasted his life in false hope. We can reply that Islam gives our lives order, meaning, balance, purpose, and direction. We have hope founded on clear facts and dependable revelation from Allah.

On the other hand, it is the Atheist who is wasting his life. His life has no purpose but temporary enjoyment. But such enjoyment is always tempered by nagging doubts about whether or not life is heading in the right direction. It is the believer who lives in quiet confidence that God's promise is true.

[Jack]

But such enjoyment is always tempered by nagging doubts about whether or not life is heading in the right direction.

All you've done is restate Pascal's Wager, which has been refuted in many places, including here, Apologia Atheos: Pascal's wager refuted.
It's an unconvincing argument.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Cephus We do. Frankly, I don't give a damn what you believe, you're more than welcome to believe any silly thing that pops into your head, so long as you give me the same respect. That means stop trying to convert people to your religion and stop trying to force your religion on everyone through force of law. Deal?

This is meaningless TROLL post and adds nothing to the debate. There is nothing wrong with people teaching or trying to spread their belief to others, this an accepted universal behavior of humans in religion, philosophy and politics. It is pretty much accepted in our society that forced conversion is wrong.

[Athena]

Quote by: Masoom The Atheist position is indeed hopeless. The believer has hope. If there is a God and there is life after death then the believer wins. If there is no God or no life after death the believer loses nothing. On the other hand, the Atheist loses badly if he wakes up to discover himself in the afterlife. In sum, if there is no afterlife both the believer and the Atheist are safe. But if there is an afterlife then the Atheist loses. The only one who can possibly lose is the Atheist. Now the Atheist can argue that if there is no afterlife then the believer has wasted his life in false hope. We can reply that Islam gives our lives order, meaning, balance, purpose, and direction. We have hope founded on clear facts and dependable revelation from Allah. On the other hand, it is the Atheist who is wasting his life. His life has no purpose but temporary enjoyment. But such enjoyment is always tempered by nagging doubts about whether or not life is heading in the right direction. It is the believer who lives in quiet confidence that God's promise is true.

You really hit upon what this thread is all about when you wrote "The Atheist position is indeed hopeless." The atheist will turn to science to understand and resolve all our problems, while religion retarded the sciences for thousands of years, leaving humanity hopeless of anything except a good after life, because they could do nothing to improve the lives we have.

Science has doubled our life expectency and greatly improved our lives in every way. The more we learn the more we capable of learning, and are advancing very rapidly, but still religion is a drag on our advancement. I have great hope for humanity and no fear of life after death. Morality is very important to me, and take joy in being of service to others, so if there is an after life, I am sure I am deserving of the very best. But does it matter? My value is here and now, and it is my grandchildren and great grandchildren I care about, and that means caring about whole world, because if there is a problem in the world, it will be their problem.

Time to provide the Eight Fold Way: right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right living, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. I believe all this right gives hope to the future. I will put my faith in reason.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I've always been confused about the eightfold path, what exactly is right? I don't know about solely religion reterding science, it certainly helped, but maurauding pagan barbarians didn't help either. Plus, Without Islam, europe may have never gotten out of the middle ages.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Masoom The Atheist position is indeed hopeless. The believer has hope. If there is a God and there is life after death then the believer wins. If there is no God or no life after death the believer loses nothing. On the other hand, the Atheist loses badly if he wakes up to discover himself in the afterlife. In sum, if there is no afterlife both the believer and the Atheist are safe. But if there is an afterlife then the Atheist loses. The only one who can possibly lose is the Atheist. Now the Atheist can argue that if there is no afterlife then the believer has wasted his life in false hope. We can reply that Islam gives our lives order, meaning, balance, purpose, and direction. We have hope founded on clear facts and dependable revelation from Allah. On the other hand, it is the Atheist who is wasting his life. His life has no purpose but temporary enjoyment. But such enjoyment is always tempered by nagging doubts about whether or not life is heading in the right direction. It is the believer who lives in quiet confidence that God's promise is true.

Your response sounds a little like Pascal's Wager. A foolish wager among many. You not only have to contemplate, IF God exists, but which God, and which version of which God will be saved if in fact any choice is meaningful.
Islam would only give order, meaning, balance, purpose and direction, IF the cause of Islam were true. But Islam is divided along the bloody lines of Shiite and Sunni, among other divisions of belief.

I believe that Islam is a religion from God, but it is ancient and divided like Judism and Christianity, culturally burdened and does not present a universal message of hope to humanity.

I am not an atheist, but I am not egotistical and foolish enough to assert and speak for others in false perception that they do not believe they have purpose.