Is god a myth?

[Krazyjuice]

Back in the roman times, they dropped the notion of paganism/polytheism and decided to worship one god.

Are we at the point in history where people finally realize that believing in any god is wrong?

[Ken Carman]

Of course God is "myth. But "myth"and "fiction" are not necessarily synonyms. A myth, in this sense, is a story told over an over again; often changed to suit the storyteller's needs. Changes can be drastic or seemingly minor. This fits both God and Jesus, a tad less so the trinity. In both cases their stories were passed down from person to person long before they were placed upon paper/papyrus. Apparently that solved little considering all the different takes on their story as represented by different flavors of faith and different versions of the bible.

All of this neither confirms, or denies, God. But I'm sure it might frustrate the hell out of a deity, depending on the variation. I doubt any decent deity would really care whether we "dip them or sprinkle them," in the case of baptism, the symbolism is so much more important than the mechanics. But I'm sure taking "turn the other cheek" and turning it into "kill your enemy" would piss off any deity.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Krazyjuice Back in the roman times, they dropped the notion of paganism/polytheism and decided to worship one god. Are we at the point in history where people finally realize that believing in any god is wrong?

The reality of history is that monotheism is much older than the Roman or Christianity. The OT or Torah shows an evolution of Judaism from polytheism to monotheism, and Roman Christianity is not necessarily monotheistic. It actually retained many of its pagan and polytheistic elements from its heritage.

Other ancient cultures also practiced forms of monotheism, come times in competition with polytheism as with the Egyptians.

God could be viewed as potentially bith myth and reality. I believe that the ancient religions like Judaism and Christianity are quite mythical in images and beliefs concerning God, and many of these beliefs are rooted in what may be called pagan beliefs.

[Zhavric]

I've never understood the notion that monotheism is in some way superior to polytheism... one work of ficktion is every bit as fictional as multiple works of fiction. I've also never seen a convincing argument that Catholocism ISN'T polytheism... the multiple gods (trinity), goddess (Mary) and pantheon of demi-gods (saints) aren't what I think of when people tell me "one god".

Anyway, one of the most horrific aspects of our modern world is that we have the technology for limited space travel, instant communication & translation, medicine to solve many diseases, and understanding of ourselves and the universe on a molecular level... yet we're still enslaved to propaganda from the bronze age.

We're MORE THAN READY to drop god...

... wait, isn't there already a thread about this?

What did you want to discuss specifically that makes it different from the other thread?

[jamesbdunn]

Quote by: Krazyjuice Back in the roman times, they dropped the notion of paganism/polytheism and decided to worship one god. Are we at the point in history where people finally realize that believing in any god is wrong?

If I were to live for millions of years, I would want to continue to evolve and be ever more influential in a good way in the Universe. To know what is happening everywhere, I would alter myself to become part of everything. A cognitive entity that is part of some sub-atomic particle set in every atom, everywhere.

I would then attempt to provide the greatest good for all species, everywhere.

So my thought processes would be so different than anything even possible with our limited human minds, that my efforts would be perceived as strange and mysterious; god-like. But in actuallity, I would simply be an evolved species that humans could not really relate to. I might provide humans with systematic guidance to allow for developing socially amongst all species. But I would not talk to them, they would not understand my concepts. If I were to present myself, they would not have the tools to adequately interpret my desires within their short lifetimes.

How many species already exist that we might consider to be god-like, and how can we reasonably presume that we would know what an evolved species would expect from us?

The Bible offered the Ten-Commandments as hard and unwaivering rules to live by. The original Bible was a Stone Tablet that had nothing but the Ten Commandments. Where did all the other stuff come from? The Bible (subsequent writings) even says that false profits shall attempt to stray each of us from our faith in the Ten-Commandments. Yet how many sub-religions have popped up trying to reason that it is okay to stray from the Ten-Commandments for this reason or that. Jesus, Mohammad, and "hundreds" of other supposed profits have come to exist, each of them denouncing the "Ten Commandments" for their own purposes.

If a religion that follows from the Ten Commandments forms that does not strictly follow the Ten Commandments, it is not a legitimate faith related to the Ten Commandments.

So, given the complexity of thought that a god-like being possesses, I would say that humans are acting on their own and blaming their actions upon divinity rather than being accountable for themselves.

At some point, people are going to have to embrace Ethical Reasoning to make decisions in their lives, rather than blaming their lot in life on destiny.

James Dunn
james.dunn@excite.com

[Jack]

Even the ten commandments lead to confusion among the faithful.

"...you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."

In this one passage, god appears to allow that there are other gods, that worshiping an image gives that image god-like qualities and that he will love "to the thousandth generation" those who love him. This would seem to contradict the salvation message of Jesus. If your ancestor 50 generations back loved god, then god should love you, regardless of your own feelings about god.

So even if there was a religious group that followed only the ten commandments, there would still be factions among them that took certain commands to be literal, figurative, metaphorical...

[Krazyjuice]

edited for quote:

Quote by: Zhavric ... wait, isn't there already a thread about this? What did you want to discuss specifically that makes it different from the other thread?

This thread is different because that one talks about religion and this one is about people letting go of their god.

Weak minded people will always turn to some sort of religion to help them during troubled times. Perhaps I should have asked if religions will exist in the future without god(s).

[Jakob]

Quote by: Isherwood In this one passage, god appears to allow that there are other gods, that worshiping an image gives that image god-like qualities and that he will love "to the thousandth generation" those who love him. This would seem to contradict the salvation message of Jesus. If your ancestor 50 generations back loved god, then god should love you, regardless of your own feelings about god.

First, idol does not equal god. Idol is an object of worship, as if a god. idolatrous worship gives an image god-like signifigance in one's life, but it does not turn it into a god.

And where in that passage did he say other things were gods? He said (paraphrased), "Don't make idols out of nature."

Thirdly, the salvation message of Jesus depends on our acceptance of God's love, not God's love of us. God loves us, unconditionally. Yet he gives us a choice, because we cannot truly love God if the love is forced. So we have to choose God's love.

Does God get angry at us? Absolutely. Disobedience is disobedience, and when we must be taught, he will teach us until we learn.

This is, by the way, not supposed to be a completion summation of the Christian doctrine. If you want one, I will have to spend weeks at the least going over fine points and interesting arguments. Maybe a topic for a new thread? If you wish to discuss Christian theology, I gladly will. unfortunately, my statement here was brief so as not to bring in more than was neccesary. end disclaimer.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Krazyjuice Weak minded people will always turn to some sort of religion to help them during troubled times.

Religion isn't for the "weak minded". Nothing says "weak minded" like the service men & woman fighting in Iraq (many of whom are Christians).

Religion is a meme... a VERY appealing meme.

[Jack]

where in that passage did he say other things were gods?

you shall have no other gods before me

So which other gods was he referring to?

[jamesbdunn]

Quote by: Krazyjuice Back in the roman times, they dropped the notion of paganism/polytheism and decided to worship one god. Are we at the point in history where people finally realize that believing in any god is wrong?

That might be a belief in your society. That the way you live is a worthy way to spend you life in mutual service with others. In the not too distant future, groups of people will be able to colinize distant planets and asteroids. They will become something like communes with their own social system. Is this more of what you are thinking about?

[Fonceai]

Which God are we talking about?

With such a general concept it would be wise to be specific.

For example, if you are talking about any of the Gods posed by any religion in Earth's history, then I'd probably say the answer is yes.

But as for the actual conceptual idea of God, I'd say no. How can a concept or idea be a myth?

[Athena]

Quote by: Isherwood Even the ten commandments lead to confusion among the faithful. "...you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments." In this one passage, god appears to allow that there are other gods, that worshiping an image gives that image god-like qualities and that he will love "to the thousandth generation" those who love him. This would seem to contradict the salvation message of Jesus. If your ancestor 50 generations back loved god, then god should love you, regardless of your own feelings about god. So even if there was a religious group that followed only the ten commandments, there would still be factions among them that took certain commands to be literal, figurative, metaphorical...

Wouldn't it suck to be the second or third generation, punished by God because his parents pissed God off? Come to think of it. Maybe if the 3 generation limit applied, we would have been free from sin after the 3rd generation of Adam and Eve?

Actually, Socrates reasoned if we do wrong, sooner or later we would experience the unpleasant consequences, even it takes 3 generations.
Wouldn't it be great if the bible forbid deforesting the land, and consuming under ground water faster than it is replenished? Instead of people living as though no matter what they do, God will bless them if they please Him? The bible does say we should be good stewarts of land, but didn't do a good job of explaining what this means.

[Athena]

The question of this thread would be better if it asked if the bible is myth. God is an unknown and unknowable. We can not directly experience God, therefore, we can not know God.

However, we can read the bible, and of common beliefs, and laws established by early civilizations, and make a fair judgement about false beliefs and myths.

Many people thought they we were God's favorite people. The Aztec even have a story of being led to the promised land after wondering through the wilderness. In fact there are so many similarities between Jewish and Aztec stories, including an equivalent to the ten commandments, that the Mormons can make a good argument that the lost tribe migranted to America.

Joseph Campbell makes a good arguement, that people around the world share similar myths, because God speaks to everyone. The old world was full of Moses and Jesus myths, separate from Moses and Jesus. Jesus is very much like the good shepard of Sumerians, and the concept of sin is Sumerian. At least 5 biblical stories were Sumerian stories, and Abraham comes from Ur, which was a Sumerian city.

Pick any bible story, and then look for equalivant stories and compare them. Determine why we should believe only the biblical version is true.

[Fonceai]

The Bible is a myth.

One thing Dan Brown used that was historically accurate was the Nicene (sp) Council.

It picked and chose how to structure Christianity.

Then they wrote a book to put the structure together.

[samsara15]

The Christian God is a myth, but certainly there is room for belief in a God of the type Spinoza could have believed in, a pantheistic type God. I agree that it is very unfair to punish futurre generations for a 'sin' that took place long before they were born. The Bible is a late Iron Age book, and should not be taken any more seriously than any other late Iron Age religious text. Christians should be willing to modfiy their religious teachings to bring their faith up to date.

[jamesbdunn]

Will mankind ever cast out all forms of god-like context from our lives, probably not. We may discover that we idolize concepts and ideas as part of our intellectual mind. The process of goal seeking may be inately linked to an idolizing mentality. Invent a concept, then do the research and try to prove that real-world relationships support the concept.

The problem with a Concept that centers around a lack of verifiable information and linking relationships is that it is more of a method to stimulate thinking, than it is a useful factual exercise. Believing in a god may be a natural consequence of a goal seeking mentality. My personal ultimate goal would be to develop myself and all species into benevolent and omnipotent entities. My present condition is somewhat less developed. :.)

I once took a philosophy course called "Critical Reasoning". The course teaches logical methods for determining if something someone says has any hope of being true. For the first few weeks I was doing terrible. No matter what the instructor said, I could think of situations that would contradict what he was saying. One day, after class, I asked to see him and I told him of my dilemma.

He at first said it wasn't true, that what he was teaching was based upon proven results. I then told him to make any statement that he believed to be absolutely true or any statement that he believes to be absolutely false, and I would show him that in either case he was wrong.

He thought for a moment and then claimed that a square has four equal sides. I quickly told him that in the vast majority of cases a square does not have four sides. When considering all possible dimensions, only a small percentage of cases exist where a square can be uniquely defined by four sides.

My instructor recanted his position of absolutes and then told me something "I" felt to be profound. "But of what use is it?"

"We can tear apart any proposed information and make it useless. What is of value is that we take the pieces of what is proposed and make the best use of it for ourselves."

So believing or not believing in any god is unimportant to me. However, ignorant people that follow blindly any person using the name of god to justify a socially destructive action, becomes an important issue to me. They themselves do NOT believe in a god, they believe in another person.

I have little benevolent use for having a God-like entity around to justify my actions. However, I find that representing what I believe to be benevolent god-like features in my mind helps me to participate in life as a better person.

I am not so quick to make the easy choice to kill someone interfering with something I want to do. Rather I take the harder road and attempt to reason how to get around the person in my way with the least resistance. I'm working on learning stradegies for getting such a person to help me in my pursuits, but I'm still an infant. Perhaps in the future I will find ways of manipulating things so a person is never in my way to begin with.

I don't think gods are based upon real observable phenomena. I think gods are a natural extension of our goal seeking mentality coupled with our empathic abilities and our awe of the Universe we live within.

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Is god a myth?
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Back in the roman times, they dropped the notion of paganism/polytheism and decided to worship one god.

Are we at the point in history where people finally realize that believing in any god is wrong?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This thread is different because that one talks about religion and this one is about people letting go of their god.

Weak minded people will always turn to some sort of religion to help them during troubled times. Perhaps I should have asked if religions will exist in the future without god(s).
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[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Fonceai The Bible is a myth. One thing Dan Brown used that was historically accurate was the Nicene (sp) Council. It picked and chose how to structure Christianity. Then they wrote a book to put the structure together.

"Nicea," if I remember correctly. I think their major job was deciding which books were to be allowed, or disallowed so, in a sense, you're right. I suspect most of this had to do with consolidating their own authority, less to do with anything Jesus may, or may not, have wanted... avoiding the topic of historical nature of Jesus for the moment. So out went the Gnostic gospels, which may have been far closer to what he may have said. Hard to build an orthodoxy when that claims "the power is within you."

[Fonceai]

A great example of this is in the movie Stigmata where the primary message of Jesus, from the Gospel of St. Thomas, was something like, "Lift a rock and you will find me, split a piece of wood and I'll be there."

Basically that God wasn't limited to buildings.