What should I do? Boy Scouts problem...

[Nathan Struth]

I'm an aethist. My Scout leader says that he's going to have problems if I"ms till an aethist when I go for eagle. He says I can't become eagle if I'm an aethist. I've allready told him I'm one and if he loved Jesus so much why wouldn't he be tolerant of my beliefs? In scouts if you believe in god you're ok for eagle.

My options are

1. Lie: Say I've found new belief in a higher power.
2. present an argument: "a scout is honest" and tell them what I believe.
3. Leave the troop (I have friends in there:()


Please present your options or tell me what you would do if you were in my boots. I'm at ends here. I'm allmost 16 (dec 22) at the star badge. What should I do?

[Jakob]

Your stuck. The boy scouts do have a constitutional right to discriminate based on religion, being a private organisation. Personally, I would never compromise my beliefs under any situation, because I firmly believe that what one believes must represent the most accurate view of the world as possible. So that leaves you with either suddenly being converted, or quitting.

On a side note, I don't really understand your question to your leader. Loving Jesus doesn't mean he lets an atheist progress through the Boy Scouts. In fact, if he truly is a Christian, then his belief is that if you don't believe in Christ, you will suffer eternally. Therefore, why should he allow you to continue unhindered in a belief he believes will lead you into eternal damnation?

[Jack]

Welcome to the complicated world we older folk have been dealing with for years.

I'm impressed that someone your age has such a good grasp of the issues at stake. Obviously reaching Eagle is important to you, as it was to me in my time. Yet your convictions are also important, and as you mention, truthfulness and honesty is supposed to be one of scouting's highest virtues. Now you've seen that achieving virtue sometimes involves being less than virtuous.

I would never presume to tell another person to lie or be honest and miss an opportunity they prize. This is going to be a difficult decision whichever way you go. But it's a decision you need to reach for yourself. The end result will be pride in your achievement, whether it's getting your eagle badge or having been honest in the face of opposition.

As strange as this may sound coming from me, if I were once again going for eagle and were an atheist (I wasn't at that time), I would consider reaching eagle more important than standing up for my non-belief. I wouldn't lie about it, claiming to have been born again or such. As I recall, they don't require an actual confession of faith. So I'd be looking for a way to sidestep the question while allowing me to continue on. Having been an eagle scout can be a valuable addition to your CV later on, much more so than being a self-professed atheist.

Then again, I was just a bit of a radical. I might have just professed my lack of faith just to piss off the powers in scouting had I been an atheist.

Now you see why I wouldn't dare to offer advise. I'd support you either way you go.

After all the hassles the scouts have suffered recently, perhaps you can tell them at least you aren't a homosexual scout leader who preys on kids. In their relief they may let you off the hook for your beliefs. :)

[Nathan Struth]

Hey thanks, I think I'll keep quiet to them. Unfortunately I might be choosing #1.

[RickSp]

I was luckier than you are in at least two respects. About the time that I decided that I was indeed an atheist, I had happily lost interest in Scouting, so I never needed to confront the issue directly. Also even if I had not dropped out at Life, the issue of belief was not so clearly carved in stone as it is today. I suspect that even if your Scoutmaster wanted to grant you some room, Scout policy would stop him.

You may heard of the case of Darrell Lambert, an Eagle Scout who was kicked out of Scouting four years ago for being an atheist. He was given the choice of either acknowledging a higher power or being told to leave. He ended up being kicked out rather than to fib or finesse his beliefs. I admire his choice and his courage.

You should of course trust your instincts. What is right for me may not be right for you in this case. With that caveat, I can say that I decided that I was an atheist at 13. I am now 53. I can safely say that it was a decision I have never regretted even though at times it would have been easier to be noncommittal believer, like most folks.

I would suggest that you not lie. Lying is too often, too easy. There will be time enough for telling lies. Like everything else lying gets easier with practice. Best not to start at your age. If there is anything worth preserving, it is your principles.

I am still very fond of Emerson

Whoso would be a man must be a nonconformist. He who would gather immortal alms must not be hindered by the name of goodness, but must explore if it be goodness. Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.

Whatever your choice is, good luck.

[Osborn F Enready]

Wow....

Had no idea the scouts were in any way religiously affiliated.

Good answers everyone.

[The Bacon Guy]

I had much the same problem with one of the U.K. equivalents known as the Boys' Brigade. Despite being more about discipline and socialising than religion, the B.B. did involve a prayer at the start of every meeting and a weekly bible class for the higher ranking members. When I joined the B.B. at about ten years old, I was already a pretty strong atheist and was slightly miffed by the religious content. However, I enjoyed the meetings and knew that the higher ranking badges which can be obtained are extremely valuable when applying for a job. So I stayed and found that the religious content really didn't bother me and that, looking at it from an atheistic point of view, it could be rather amusing.

In the end, I did leave the Boys' Brigade for other reasons, namely that my assigned squad were a bunch of tossers who came bottom in everything and hence scuppered my chances of doing well. But the religion didn't bother me.

So my advice to you would be to lie. I don't think this would be in any way violating your atheistic principles. If you lie, you will still be an atheist; only you will be an atheist with an Eagle Badge and a distinct advantage when applying for a job. Taking a stand is all very well, but you have to ask yourself what it will really achieve.

[phoenix_fire]

I have little pity. It is, after all, a Christian organization. I wouldn't join the KKK and then get upset that they wouldn't make me a Grand Dragon when they found out that I didn't hate blacks.

[RickSp]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I wouldn't join the KKK and then get upset that they wouldn't make me a Grand Dragon when they found out that I didn't hate blacks.

Exactly the sort of analogy one might expect from you phoenix. Christian compassion in evidence, once again.

[jose]

here are some of the rules
BSALegal.org >
I had a friend in the UK ,who got thrown out of the scouts for eating a brownie

[Amuse]

Quote by: Nathan Struth I'm an aethist. My Scout leader says that he's going to have problems if I"ms till an aethist when I go for eagle. He says I can't become eagle if I'm an aethist. I've allready told him I'm one and if he loved Jesus so much why wouldn't he be tolerant of my beliefs? In scouts if you believe in god you're ok for eagle. My options are 1. Lie: Say I've found new belief in a higher power. 2. present an argument: "a scout is honest" and tell them what I believe. 3. Leave the troop (I have friends in there:() Please present your options or tell me what you would do if you were in my boots. I'm at ends here. I'm allmost 16 (dec 22) at the star badge. What should I do?

Why would you want to be affiliated with an organization that is so pregudice anyway? Where is the honor in that? Being an eagle scout is but one of many ways to be a good citizen. Being truthful to yourself is far more important than anything else. When you are truthful to yourself, being truthful to others naturally follows. Whether they accept you or not is their choice and takes NOTHING away from who you are. Ultimately, you are responsible for who and what you become regardless of what anybody tells you you should be.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: RickSp Exactly the sort of analogy one might expect from you phoenix. Christian compassion in evidence, once again.

Oh please. If you can offer some reason why the analogy is inaccurate, please do. The fact that you resort to such baseless criticism indicates that you have nothing better to say. This sitch is a no-brainer.

[Nathan Struth]

Pheonix you have a good anaology. THe reason I want Eagle is to get to a better college as my average GPA is about a 3.43 . I want to go to a good college and Eagle will help. I think I'm choosing choice 1. The organization still shouldn't be so intolerant though...even though they have those rights.

[jose]

Quote by: Nathan Struth Pheonix you have a good analogy. The reason I want Eagle is to get to a better college as my average GPA is about a 3.43 . I want to go to a good college and Eagle will help. I think I'm choosing choice 1. The organization still shouldn't be so intolerant though...even though they have those rights.

if it means that much to you Nathan, go with thier flow and cross your fingers behind your back i personally believe this world/universe didn't happen by accident and there is a higher power which i cant comprehend, just as an ant cannot comprehend that humans exist ,but we do

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Amuse Why would you want to be affiliated with an organization that is so pregudice anyway?

It looks good on a CV.

Quote by: Amuse Where is the honor in that? Being an eagle scout is but one of many ways to be a good citizen. Being truthful to yourself is far more important than anything else. When you are truthful to yourself, being truthful to others naturally follows. Whether they accept you or not is their choice and takes NOTHING away from who you are. Ultimately, you are responsible for who and what you become regardless of what anybody tells you you should be.

How would lying to the prejudiced organisation constitute untruthfulness to oneself? He would be lying to the scout leader; not to himself. Unless you are suggesting that pretending to be Christian would eventually lead you to become a Christian, it would not affect who he is, i.e. an atheist.

[Scribbler1]

It probably isn't the first time you've lied and it definitely won't be the last. I think the only criteria should be is if the lie harms anyone.

[Jakob]

So... for the sake of a badge, he is to compromise his beliefs?

If his beliefs are of such little importance that he is to cover them up for the sake of personal advancement, then there isn't an issue in the first place, because his beliefs really mean nothing, except when they are to his own benefit.

[The Bacon Guy]

How is he compromising his beliefs? Will pretending to be Christian in any way change what he actually believes?

[Jack]

his beliefs really mean nothing, except when they are to his own benefit.

When else do your beliefs mean anything at all to anyone else? They're his beliefs, he can do with them as he wishes.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Jakob So... for the sake of a badge, he is to compromise his beliefs? If his beliefs are of such little importance that he is to cover them up for the sake of personal advancement, then there isn't an issue in the first place, because his beliefs really mean nothing, except when they are to his own benefit.

Are you the arbiter of morality? In your entire life, did you EVER lie, about anything, even something you consider trivial?

Is such a lie, or maybe even an omission under certain circumstances, harming anyone or does it achieve a goal while having no effect on anyone?