What should I do? Boy Scouts problem...

[dilligras]

Quote by: Isherwood I hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of the guys I enlisted with were joining for the benefits and training, even with the threat of being sent off to kill the VC hanging over our heads. Patriotism is a wonderful emotion properly applied, but it won't get you a job or feed your family. Having a DD-214 and military training would.

You hate to break it to me? Coud you possibly find it within yourself to be just a little more condescending? If you could, I would be forever in your debt, as I am struggling with my own delusions of self-importance and would greatly appreciate any assistance you may provide in that regard.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you would consider briefly the possibility that I was refering to my own policy in such matters; you might find that the above argument consists mostly of straw.

However, if by contrasting my personal policy to your own you feel somehow slighted, please accept my humble apology, at least until such time as you deign to accept the inevitability of the outcomes when deferring responsibility for ones choices to others.



As you were.

[Jack]

Coud you possibly find it within yourself to be just a little more condescending?

I didn't put a smiley face in there because I not only thought it obvious that it was not a malicious response but because it was an observation based on my experiences.
So yeah, I'll try to be less condescending if you'll try not to take offense where non was intended.

[dilligras]

Thank you. A gentleman and a scholar of finer distinction shall n'eer be found, of that I am certain.

True, I was slightly taken aback by what I percieved as presumption...........but then, it may only be that my psyche is overly reactive to the covert barbs of insensitive disregard, scarred as it is from years of neglect and abuse.





But I'm feeling much better now.

[Lotharia]

I'd opt for #1. Lie.

There is no law against lying about your religion. You could as easily say you believe in some god as say you believe in leprechauns or unicorns. No skin off your nose.

Basically you just need to weigh which is more important to you -- truth in all things or becoming an Eagle Scout? What does truth get you in this case?

The lie isn't illegal. It may be immoral, but that's completely your choice, your morals -- pros versus cons. I vote for tell them their god is way cool, and go ahead and get the Eagle rank.

[gallo]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Figures, coming from people like the two of you.

But you were the one who introduced the KKK into the discussion as an example of a christian organization. What is your point?

[Amuse]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy He doesn’t want the badge to stand for his ideology. Atheism is not an ideology; it is nothing more than a lack of belief. He doesn’t believe that the badge will stand for atheism, or indeed that it will stand for anything.

Of coarse he doesn't expect it to stand for his ideology, he wants the benefits the badge stands for in society at large which doesn't represent his ideology. The badge represents the ideology and standards of the BSA and are in conflict with Nathan's ideology.
Atheism is an ideology based on the belief that God/ gods don't exist. That life is by accident or at least arbitrary and that nothing exists before birth or after death, THAT IS an ideology. So if your so sure he doesn't believe it will stand for anything then why is it so important to him?

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Poor analogy. The purpose of the badge is not to look cool to Christians; it is to put the owner in an advantageous position when it comes to getting a job.

I think its a great analogy but with the "volume" turned up.

Quote by: The Bacon Guy What nonsense. Are you saying that actors have to believe themselves to be their character in order to be convincing? Or that criminals who lie in court all genuinely believe that they are innocent? I really don’t see how you can back that claim up with anything.

Actors often do this but with regards to criminals, in court they may be lying to save themselves (after the fact) but during the commision of their crime it was "justified" in their mind with no regard to the outcome.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Amuse Atheism is an ideology based on the belief that God/ gods don't exist. That life is by accident or at least arbitrary and that nothing exists before birth or after death, THAT IS an ideology. So if your so sure he doesn't believe it will stand for anything then why is it so important to him?

Because it will help him to get a job. Simple as that. There is no reason to bring ideology into this. Other than increasing his chances of getting a job, what tangible effect will lying have?

Quote by: Amuse I think its a great analogy but with the "volume" turned up.

Sound can be distorted when the volume is turned too high. Actively pretending to be a radical Muslim is different from simply claiming to be a Christian, and looking cool is different from increasing the odds of getting a job. Also, there are the social implications of dressing up like a terrorist. The magnitudes of the actions and consequences are totally incomparable.

But perhaps you meant your analogy in isolation from these factors. If this is the case, and supposing that looking cool is as important to this person as getting a job is to a normal person, I would say go for it. Again, I don't see any reason not to.

Quote by: Amuse Actors often do this but with regards to criminals, in court they may be lying to save themselves (after the fact) but during the commision of their crime it was "justified" in their mind with no regard to the outcome.

What has that to do with your original point, to wit: “How can you make a lie seem truthful to someone else unless you believe it yourself?”? The criminal lies in court, in full knowledge of the fact that he is lying and he often convinces the jury that he is telling the truth. He has made a lie which he does not believe seem truthful to someone else.

[Jack]

Atheism is an ideology based on the belief that God/ gods don't exist.

Put another, and I think more concise way, atheism is the lack of a "god" ideology. It doesn't say what is, it's the rejection of what others say is. It proposes no alternative to god, it simply doesn't accept the claim that god exists.

[Matts]

dilligras' response in the thread "Homosexual marriage:"

Vacuous discourse? Gee, I love that kinda talk. But could you raise the level of condescension just a bit? If you could, I would be forever in your debt, as I am struggling with my own delusions of intellectual self-importance and would greatly appreciate any assistance you may provide in that regard.

dilligras' response in the current thread:

You hate to break it to me? Coud you possibly find it within yourself to be just a little more condescending? If you could, I would be forever in your debt, as I am struggling with my own delusions of self-importance and would greatly appreciate any assistance you may provide in that regard.

Notice also how freely one can adopt in later messages the same "superior" register of speech one has ridiculed in a previous post.

[dilligras]

dilligras' response in the thread "Homosexual marriage:" Vacuous discourse? Gee, I love that kinda talk. But could you raise the level of condescension just a bit? If you could, I would be forever in your debt, as I am struggling with my own delusions of intellectual self-importance and would greatly appreciate any assistance you may provide in that regard. dilligras' response in the current thread: You hate to break it to me? Coud you possibly find it within yourself to be just a little more condescending? If you could, I would be forever in your debt, as I am struggling with my own delusions of self-importance and would greatly appreciate any assistance you may provide in that regard. Notice also how freely one can adopt in later messages the same "superior" register of speech one has ridiculed in a previous post.

What? One is only allowed to post something they authored in response to one case of condescension per Forum?

Both were cases where I was belabored by a superior attitude, so the response to both was entirely appropriate.

Next, I will no doubt be charged with plagiarizing my own work.

Oh well, if that is what passes for "debate" in your neck of the woods, then I am not surprised that you adhere to illogical positions, as you probably fell for the same fallacies yourself, when presented by some icon of lefty "wisdom".

Hint: Crude attempts at villification do not equate with winning a debate on any topic, whether it be gay marriage, gay divorce court, or lying to the BSA.


.

[dilligras]

Would someone here check to see if I have had some adolescent prankster's "kick me" sign surreptitiously stuck to my back?

This is getting ludicrous, especially in a forum that portends to foster debate by asking its posters to familiarize themselves with the fallacies of argument.

Ironymus maximus, Poindexter.

[Amuse]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Because it will help him to get a job. Simple as that. There is no reason to bring ideology into this. Other than increasing his chances of getting a job, what tangible effect will lying have?

So if you're a boss looking to hire somebody, why would "You" pick an eagle scout over one who is not? In your mind, the achievment of eagle scout has some impact on your assesment of that person over another. Scouts are to be truthful and honest and here's an applicant that represents that creed but yet he lied to get to eagle scout. You just hired a lier believing he is honest and will continue to be honest with his duties that you are paying him for.

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Sound can be distorted when the volume is turned too high. Actively pretending to be a radical Muslim is different from simply claiming to be a Christian, and looking cool is different from increasing the odds of getting a job. Also, there are the social implications of dressing up like a terrorist. The magnitudes of the actions and consequences are totally incomparable. But perhaps you meant your analogy in isolation from these factors. If this is the case, and supposing that looking cool is as important to this person as getting a job is to a normal person, I would say go for it. Again, I don't see any reason not to.

So you appreciate being lied too? You're ok with people being dishonest with you?


[quote=The Bacon Guy,306944]What has that to do with your original point, to wit: “How can you make a lie seem truthful to someone else unless you believe it yourself?”? The criminal lies in court, in full knowledge of the fact that he is lying and he often convinces the jury that he is telling the truth. He has made a lie which he does not believe seem truthful to someone else.[QUOTE/]

And how is that accomplished? Aaaacting. Pretending the lie is the truth. The difference between a great performance and a poor one is the ability of the actor to immerse themself into the role so at some level they must believe the lie, justifiy it as truth. For a lie to seem truthful the mind and body must be working together otherwise the body is usualy the one to give away the lie.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Amuse So if you're a boss looking to hire somebody, why would "You" pick an eagle scout over one who is not? In your mind, the achievment of eagle scout has some impact on your assesment of that person over another. Scouts are to be truthful and honest and here's an applicant that represents that creed but yet he lied to get to eagle scout. You just hired a lier believing he is honest and will continue to be honest with his duties that you are paying him for.

That doesn’t affect Struth in any way. If the employer wishes to hire people based on something like Scout membership, he should have considered the possibility of the applicant having lied. Everyone lies or exaggerates in job interviews. It is something for which any employer worth his salt would be prepared.

Quote by: Amuse So you appreciate being lied too? You're ok with people being dishonest with you?

If it does me no harm, yes I am.

Quote by: Amuse And how is that accomplished? Aaaacting. Pretending the lie is the truth

Pretending the lie is the truth is not the same as believing that the lie is true.

Quote by: Amuse . The difference between a great performance and a poor one is the ability of the actor to immerse themself into the role so at some level they must believe the lie, justifiy it as truth. For a lie to seem truthful the mind and body must be working together otherwise the body is usualy the one to give away the lie.

In Struth’s case, he hardly has to immerse himself in the lie in order to be convincing. He may not even have to tell a lie unless directly asked about his faith. Even then, all he has to do is to say that he is not an atheist. They would have no reason to doubt him and I doubt very much that the BSA employ body language experts to verify the truth of the scouts' religious claims.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Nathan Struth Hey thanks, I think I'll keep quiet to them. Unfortunately I might be choosing #1.

I didn't realize the scouts were a Christian organization, but I'd keep my mouth shut, they shouldn't be asking and you can just say this is a personal matter if they do. This wouldn't be lying because it's really noone's business in the first place, and I can bet that there are other boys who aren't strong believer's if they are in your age group.

[Compugasm]

I've never hired anyone because they're an Eagle Scout, but of course I was never in charge of the Custodial Arts department.

[Amuse]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy That doesn’t affect Struth in any way. If the employer wishes to hire people based on something like Scout membership, he should have considered the possibility of the applicant having lied. Everyone lies or exaggerates in job interviews. It is something for which any employer worth his salt would be prepared. If it does me no harm, yes I am. Pretending the lie is the truth is not the same as believing that the lie is true. In Struth’s case, he hardly has to immerse himself in the lie in order to be convincing. He may not even have to tell a lie unless directly asked about his faith. Even then, all he has to do is to say that he is not an atheist. They would have no reason to doubt him and I doubt very much that the BSA employ body language experts to verify the truth of the scouts' religious claims.

Deceit breeds more deceit and never will a lie become truth. America is in a war because of a lie. If a person starts to lie at a young age and it becomes acceptible by people like yourself, the results of a persons actions in the future become unpredictable and we wind up with leaders who lie. Enjoy.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Amuse Deceit breeds more deceit and never will a lie become truth.

For the lie to become truth is the last thing he wants, so I guess everyone is happy.

Quote by: Amuse America is in a war because of a lie. If a person starts to lie at a young age and it becomes acceptible by people like yourself, the results of a persons actions in the future become unpredictable and we wind up with leaders who lie. Enjoy.

The difference between this situation and the situation of the lies surrounding the war in Iraq is that the lies regarding the war were harmful, whereas the lie regarding the Scouts is not. Also, World leaders are under an obligation not to lie, since they are put in power by the people who do not wish to be lied to. Struth is under no obligation to be truthful to the BSA.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Marilyn Monroe I didn't realize the scouts were a Christian organization, but I'd keep my mouth shut, they shouldn't be asking and you can just say this is a personal matter if they do. This wouldn't be lying because it's really noone's business in the first place, and I can bet that there are other boys who aren't strong believer's if they are in your age group.

They aren't necessarily Christian but they are religious. They don't care what religion you practice, you just have to practice some religion. As such, they are discriminatory against atheists, but as a supposedly private organization, they are allowed to be.

[Marilyn Monroe]

Quote by: Cephus They aren't necessarily Christian but they are religious. They don't care what religion you practice, you just have to practice some religion. As such, they are discriminatory against atheists, but as a supposedly private organization, they are allowed to be.

It's kinda stupid that they have to have Some religion, not any particular type.

I can see being a private organization they can say who's in and who's out, but starting when kids are so young, and then going through adolescence there have to be kids who are not strong believers.

The problem I see is why are they discriminatory? This is really wacko. Since they have some wacko tendencies, but you like the comaraderie you have developed stick with it, and just say whatever you used to be. Choices have to be made in life, and when to tell the truth is one of them. There are all sorts of instances in life where the truth could be hurtful, and this is a white lie sort of thing. It won't hurt anyone but you if you come clean, and you will lose more than you gain. Even God doesn't really care about white lies all that much, so there's the answer.

[Amuse]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy For the lie to become truth is the last thing he wants, so I guess everyone is happy. The difference between this situation and the situation of the lies surrounding the war in Iraq is that the lies regarding the war were harmful, whereas the lie regarding the Scouts is not. Also, World leaders are under an obligation not to lie, since they are put in power by the people who do not wish to be lied to. Struth is under no obligation to be truthful to the BSA.

Lying always starts out innocently in children and then they become adults who are what make the world go round so I guess if you see no problem with lying then that is the world we can create.