What should I do? Boy Scouts problem...

[Amuse]

Quote by: tivodan1116 What is it about the Boy Scouts that you claim is prejudice? If a church did not allow an atheist to be their pastor, would that be prejudice? If a Republican campaigning for Congress did not want to hire a Democrat as his campaign manager, would that be prejudice?

We are talking about beliefs here. If the BS don't accept him because of his beliefs that is prejudice (pre-judging) and it IS no different than your other examples here. I don't think an atheist would try to become a pastor of a church to convert its congregation to atheism or a DEM would want to go to work for a REP to push REP ideology.
The BS on the other hand won't lie to the athiest and say he can become an eagle scout just to further their agenda so who is more honorable here?

Quote by: tivodan1116 There are certain qualifications for certain things. That does not equal prejudice.

Prejudice= pre-judgment, without trial, assumption of an outcome without concideration

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Zhavric Leave the troop. The boyscouts are discriminatory towards non-believers.

It would seem so, but who loses in that case? If you feel you need something from them but can't due to their discriminatory policies and a little white lie can achieve that, I don't see the problem.

Maybe that's just me being an honest realist. Unlike the moralists I have seen here who seem to have no problem telling others to NEVER lie, yet they lie themselves, I believe there are different levels of lying. "Sure I believe in a higher power, why not." is more acceptable than "No, I didn't mislead those people to buy that worthless stock".

My only wish in this is if I could somehow be there when each one of these moralists lies to their wives about where they were last night, lies to the IRS, lies to the teacher/professor, lies to a cop or when they lie to their boss to get that big promotion. I might be able to remind them about advising someone not to do it when his only goal was to advance himself at no cost to others.

In some cases, in this society, telling the occasional white lie is simply real life and if you don't you might end up living in a cardboard box. But advice IS cheap, isn't it? Especially when you don''t have to follow it yourself.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Nathan Struth I'm an aethist. My Scout leader says that he's going to have problems if I"ms till an aethist when I go for eagle. He says I can't become eagle if I'm an aethist. I've allready told him I'm one and if he loved Jesus so much why wouldn't he be tolerant of my beliefs? In scouts if you believe in god you're ok for eagle. My options are 1. Lie: Say I've found new belief in a higher power. 2. present an argument: "a scout is honest" and tell them what I believe. 3. Leave the troop (I have friends in there:() Please present your options or tell me what you would do if you were in my boots. I'm at ends here. I'm allmost 16 (dec 22) at the star badge. What should I do?

I'm not clear on what exactly will occur if you try for eagle. Will the scout leader ask you to affirm a belief in a higher power? Will you have to swear to abide by their rules, so help you god, or something to that effect?

If it won't be brought to a confrontation by the Scouts, then you shouldn't bring it to a confrontation either. Atheists are not evangelical; we should not feel a need to stand up for our beliefs in order to show the strength of those beliefs to others. We do not seek converts. So just don't say anything, if they won't ask you directly about it.

If they ask you directly about it, then tell them you consider yourself an agnostic, and that you were using the term "atheist" to describe your lack of belief in the Christian god specifically. The term agnostic can be used to describe effectively any religious belief, including atheism, because it simply means a lack of knowledge of god -- which is exactly what you have, a lack of knowledge of god. Just because your lack of knowledge comes from the fact that there is no god doesn't make the term "agnostic" inapplicable. But to most people, the term implies a belief in god without an acceptance of religious dogma, and it should be acceptable -- though I am speaking from a total lack of experience with the BSA. If you can use semantics to your advantage, then do so; that's what they're for.

The point is, not everything needs to be a crusade. As a private organization, the BSA are not going to change their rules for you, and I doubt that any of your fellow scouts are going to change their beliefs because of you. You have to ask yourself what is the purpose of your membership in the scouts. If it is to help you make yourself into a better person, a more moral and honorable person, then you need to do what feels right to you, regardless of the consequences. If it is to have fun, to learn some skills and to help you later in life, then do what you have to to maintain those things. I can't tell you how many times I have lied as part of my professional life; it is simply part of my professional life. I still consider myself an honorable person, because I believe that when it counts, I do not lie. The lies that I have told have been inconsequential, and they have not pushed me down the slippery slope into lying all the time. This is where that cliche, the little white lie, comes into play. You just need to decide if this lie is one of those.

[RickSp]

If you are determined to become an Eagle become a dietist for a few months. Or consider the Unitarians as Frank suggested. Better than lying about being a mainstream believer. Not the best answer but it should satisfy the BSA home office.

[gallo]

Quote by: RickSp Quote by: phoenix_fire I have little pity. It is, after all, a Christian organization. I wouldn't join the KKK and then get upset that they wouldn't make me a Grand Dragon when they found out that I didn't hate blacks. Exactly the sort of analogy one might expect from you phoenix. Christian compassion in evidence, once again.

I don't know, Rick. It seems to me that it is actually a pretty good analogy coming from a christian. After all, the KKK is a christian organization too.

[RickSp]

Quote by: gallo I don't know, Rick. It seems to me that it is actually a pretty good analogy coming from a christian. After all, the KKK is a christian organization too.

When you are right, you are right, Gallo. My mistake.

[Jack]

Let's put this question in another perspective.
Does anyone truly believe that of all the members of Congress, the Senate and the White House, and all those candidates running for office are theists, christian in particular? Is it not realistic to assume at least a few are actually atheists/agnostics? Yet can anyone name one single atheist anywhere in those groups? So we can safely say that at least a few of them are lying to the public about their beliefs or at the very least allowing people to draw the conclusion that they're theists without correcting that misconception.

They lie about it because they know that an atheist is more likely not to be elected than to be elected, regardless of where they stand on other, more important issues.

[eyral]

the term God hasn't been defined so an atheist thinks of it cannot be automatically assumed. Seems the problem is with the theists because no one ever bothers to explain what is meant by "GOD". The problem that people have with God is not a philosophical one it is a psychological one. Emotionally it is difficult to have faith in God and trust when we do not have a reason why bad things happen to us. Unbelievers internally cry out for an answer to such a question also. But God does not give us those answers. The Bible tells us to have faith like a mustard seed and ours is not to ask questions but to trust. I think we should all desire to do good if not for God for our own happiness and well being.
I do not think you should lie, however, sounds like you are still young, so do some research and perhaps you will find or be able to identify with some type of higher power for scouts.
Good Luck

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Isherwood Let's put this question in another perspective. Does anyone truly believe that of all the members of Congress, the Senate and the White House, and all those candidates running for office are theists, christian in particular? Is it not realistic to assume at least a few are actually atheists/agnostics? Yet can anyone name one single atheist anywhere in those groups? So we can safely say that at least a few of them are lying to the public about their beliefs or at the very least allowing people to draw the conclusion that they're theists without correcting that misconception. They lie about it because they know that an atheist is more likely not to be elected than to be elected, regardless of where they stand on other, more important issues.

Absolutely! I can only add that in any other large organization such as the BSA, with close to 3 Million members total, there are plenty of otherwise good, honest and honorable people in that number who are also atheists. I have no doubt that most of these people are credits to the organization to which they belong and don't differ from anyone else except for that one little detail, which in the end is nobody's business anyway.

And I feel this type of lie is along the same lines as what you say when you tell a mugger you have no money. There shouldn't be this kind of controversy.

[Jack]

the term God hasn't been defined so an atheist thinks of it cannot be automatically assumed.

For the most part, our discussions center on the christian god, who is quite well defined. The BSA also presumes a christian god. If someone wishes to debate another form of god, they need to explicitly define what they mean by god.

Emotionally it is difficult to have faith in God and trust when we do not have a reason why bad things happen to us. Unbelievers internally cry out for an answer to such a question also. But God does not give us those answers.

Atheists know why "bad" things happen. Because things happen. It's the way of life. No one has a life in which only "good" things happen to them. Certainly we seek answers to questions, but we seek with our intellect and our science, not through mythology.

The Bible tells us to have faith like a mustard seed and ours is not to ask questions but to trust.

Exactly why intelligent people have a problem with religious answers to life's issues. Intellectual curiosity requires asking questions. Atheists tend to be thinkers.

I think we should all desire to do good if not for God for our own happiness and well being.

Atheists would agree with that, as long as "good" were well defined.

so do some research

I'd say by posting his question here he's doing just that.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Isherwood For the most part, our discussions center on the christian god, who is quite well defined. The BSA also presumes a christian god. If someone wishes to debate another form of god, they need to explicitly define what they mean by god.

The Boy Scouts don't care which god you worship, so long as you worship one. Any god will do. Christian, Jew, Hindu, whatever. The only folks the can't tolerate are athiests. And of course homosexuals.

[G. Adams]

Quote by: Isherwood Let's put this question in another perspective. Does anyone truly believe that of all the members of Congress, the Senate and the White House, and all those candidates running for office are theists, christian in particular? Is it not realistic to assume at least a few are actually atheists/agnostics? Yet can anyone name one single atheist anywhere in those groups? So we can safely say that at least a few of them are lying to the public about their beliefs or at the very least allowing people to draw the conclusion that they're theists without correcting that misconception. They lie about it because they know that an atheist is more likely not to be elected than to be elected, regardless of where they stand on other, more important issues.

Your suggesting politicians are people worthy of emulation? If you copy the ethics of assholes, where does that leave you?

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: G. Adams Your suggesting politicians are people worthy of emulation? If you copy the ethics of assholes, where does that leave you?

President of the United States?

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: ByaKya im not suprised at least one person lost the point of saying this to the scout leader, we cant all be on top of things. I know the boy scouts are ok with it, but the bible thumping scout leader will most likely be pissed off about it, he would then have wished he shut up about the OPs religious affiliation.

What makes you think he's a Christian fundamentalist? That was never specified in your OP. You are assuming he is, based on your own ::wait for it:: PREJUDICE... Funny how people who criticize others for being prejudiced often reveal their own prejudice in the process...

Quote by: Matts Apart from completely agreeing on the point made by RickSp, I think I want to point out another aspect to this problem of lying. Namely, the fact that organisations like the Boy Scouts rely on deception to recruit new members into their ranks. It is your typical bait-and-switch game in which the customer is first lured in with promises of one thing (new friends, sense of fulfilment and purpose in life, etc) but is then delivered something that was not discussed prior to the purchase (obligation to undergo religious conversion). It is outrageous! How many would-be Boy Scouts actually know, prior to making a long-term commitment to the organisation, that at some point they may be expected to undergo religious conversion?

I don't know where you're getting this horseshit from but your completely off base. What is the religious conversion? Where is the bait-and-switch?
1)The Boy Scouts accept many religions worldwide.
2)The Boy Scouts are completely up-front about their requirement as far as believing in a god of some sort.

• Scout Oath - On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to GOD...
• Scout Laws - A Scout is REVERENT (1 of 12 laws)
• Meetings - every meeting begins and ends with an ecumenical prayer.
• Leadership - almost every troop has an ecumenical chaplain

If you join Scouts, these are things you will learn at your first meeting. They are public and available for anyone. Furthermore, any of their materials are available for purchase for anyone in the world that wants to see them. Your assertion that the Boy Scouts are some sort of secret society is plainly asinine.

Your comparison of the Boy Scouts to Scientology is idiotic at best and libelous at worst on its face, so I need not respond.

I mean, PLEASE!! Isn't this the sort of thing that desperately needs to be discussed well before any serious commitment is made to a group?! Imagine if the Catholic church demanded years of dedication to some half-baked self-help philosophy and only then revealed the whole Adam-and-Eve/original-sin business? Now, I can't say I'm a big fan of Christianity, but at least they lay their cards on the table from the outset.

As do the Scouts. See above. There is no merit whatsoever to your argument that the Scouts deceive their recruits in terms of the Scouts' relationship with G/god. It would be clear to the stupidest of atheists at their first meeting that this organization, among other things, prays to God, has their members repeat an oath requiring them to do their duty before God, requires their members to be reverent, and many other things. How is that bait and switch?

[Jack]

Your suggesting politicians are people worthy of emulation?

No, not at all. Just that the BSA is hardly the only group which contains atheists who don't announce the fact.
I really like CoffeeSaint's reply. Perfect!

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: RickSp When you are right, you are right, Gallo. My mistake.

Figures, coming from people like the two of you.:rolleyes:

[RickSp]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Figures, coming from people like the two of you.:rolleyes:

Fittingly enough, the KKK is an explictly Christian organization while the Boy Scouts are not.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Amuse The issue isn't about lying to the prejudiced organization. If you disagree with the orgaization's ideology you would be lying to yourself with the belief that the organizations symbols of achievment doesn't really stand for or represent their ideology but instead stands for your ideology.

He doesn’t want the badge to stand for his ideology. Atheism is not an ideology; it is nothing more than a lack of belief. He doesn’t believe that the badge will stand for atheism, or indeed that it will stand for anything.

Quote by: Amuse Maybe a more drastic representation of my point would be to ask you this- If you don't agree with "RADICAL" muslims ideology would you fake being one just so you could wear the cool headsock and carry an AK47 because it looks good when the terrorists come knocking at your door?

Poor analogy. The purpose of the badge is not to look cool to Christians; it is to put the owner in an advantageous position when it comes to getting a job.

Quote by: Amuse The eagle scout badge, like any other icon is symbolic of a belief system. If you disagree with the belief system why give it power by immersing yourself in it?

Because the badge is a distinct advantage when getting a job.

Quote by: Amuse Lying to anyone is also lying to yourself. How can you make a lie seem truthful to someone else unless you believe it yourself?

What nonsense. Are you saying that actors have to believe themselves to be their character in order to be convincing? Or that criminals who lie in court all genuinely believe that they are innocent? I really don’t see how you can back that claim up with anything.

[dilligras]

Interesting thread.

In reading it, two quotes come to mind:

"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!"
Sir Walter Scott

"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."
Shakespeare

I could not recommend an overt lie, as it constitutes a perpetration against those to whom the lie is proffered, and the human mind does nothing so well as rationalize misdeeds against others, usually by justifying even further perpetrations of one kind or another against those who "made" one commit such an odious deed.

Yes, I know it isn't "rational", but the mind is not so much a machine of logic, as a tool for self-preservation, or "survival".

Truth be known, I would not feel comfortable "doing" the scout thing because of some nebulous benefit to my future employment, any more than I would join the Army strictly for the training and benefits, if I were not entirely committed to serving my country in that venue, no matter the duty station.

Indian Larry (may he rest in peace) said once that the best reason he could come up with for not lying was that he didn't have to try to remember to whom he told which lie, later on.

But to my mind, that position might make it too easy to justify a lie to someone, just because I knew I would never see them again.


Just my .02, but then, what the hell do I know about anything?


As you were.

[Jack]

any more than I would join the Army strictly for the training and benefits, if I were not entirely committed to serving my country in that venue, no matter the duty station.

I hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of the guys I enlisted with were joining for the benefits and training, even with the threat of being sent off to kill the VC hanging over our heads. Patriotism is a wonderful emotion properly applied, but it won't get you a job or feed your family. Having a DD-214 and military training would.