What should I do? Boy Scouts problem...

[Jakob]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy" How is he compromising his beliefs? Will pretending to be Christian in any way change what he actually believes?

I believe I covered that in the second paragraph of my post. Though I'll gladly repeat myself.

If his beliefs are of such little importance that he is to cover them up for the sake of personal advancement, then there isn't an issue in the first place, because his beliefs really mean nothing, except when they are to his own benefit.

And now perhaps some elaboration. He isn't arbitrarily an atheist (or at least I hope not). His atheism is (should be) the sum total of all his life's experiences examined and explained in his best possible way. Not only that, but it should dictate how he further lives his life. Placing his atheism on a lower shelf than his personal advancement is no kind of world view at all. In fact, it betrays a world view that is more focused on personal gain than on any philosophical concept. I'm not (for the sake of this argument) saying that is neccesarily a bad thing. I am saying, however, that his atheism would therefore mean little to him.

Quote by: Scribbler1 Are you the arbiter of morality? In your entire life, did you EVER lie, about anything, even something you consider trivial? Is such a lie, or maybe even an omission under certain circumstances, harming anyone or does it achieve a goal while having no effect on anyone?

Sir, I am not an arbiter of morality, nor would I ever claim to be one. However, he has asked my opinion, I have stated it, and now I defend it. I feel that I do have solid moral ground to stand on, because this is the standard I hold myself to. Such is my advice to him.

Have I lied before? Most certainly. Have I regretted it? You betcha. Am I perfect? No. Are you? I hardly think so.

Your argument focuses purely on the idea that not harming others justifies an act that otherwise would be condemned. My argument focuses on the idea that there is more to life than balancing the scales, more to life than hurts or doesn't hurt, because what I believe I believe because it not only explains my life, my experiences but also those of others around me. It explains why and how I exist, why others exist, why I am taking part in this conversation right now.

One's beliefs dictate how they act, it is as simple as that. And whether one believes what one claims to is an entirely different matter. To shelve one's belief, even momentarily, at no harm to others, shows that that particular belief means less to them than the reason for shelving it.

[RickSp]

Lying to get ahead is far too common at any age. It would be a shame if that is the one lesson the Boy Souts teach.

[ByaKya]

Thank him for opening your eyes to the world of religious tolerance and now that you've done some reading you have finally come to believe in a higher power...........Allah

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Amuse Why would you want to be affiliated with an organization that is so pregudice anyway?

What is it about the Boy Scouts that you claim is prejudice? If a church did not allow an atheist to be their pastor, would that be prejudice? If a Republican campaigning for Congress did not want to hire a Democrat as his campaign manager, would that be prejudice?

There are certain qualifications for certain things. That does not equal prejudice.

Quote by: ByaKya Thank him for opening your eyes to the world of religious tolerance and now that you've done some reading you have finally come to believe in a higher power...........Allah

Not to burst your bubble, but your attempt at making a joke falls flat... Muslims are welcome in Boy Scouts.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Jakob If his beliefs are of such little importance that he is to cover them up for the sake of personal advancement, then there isn't an issue in the first place, because his beliefs really mean nothing, except when they are to his own benefit. And now perhaps some elaboration. He isn't arbitrarily an atheist (or at least I hope not). His atheism is (should be) the sum total of all his life's experiences examined and explained in his best possible way.

I don't see how you can arbitrarily be an atheist under ANY circumstances. Either you accept a god, reject previous teaching or you never HAD such teaching in the first place.

Not only that, but it should dictate how he further lives his life. Placing his atheism on a lower shelf than his personal advancement is no kind of world view at all. In fact, it betrays a world view that is more focused on personal gain than on any philosophical concept. I'm not (for the sake of this argument) saying that is neccesarily a bad thing. I am saying, however, that his atheism would therefore mean little to him.

It shouldn't mean ANYTHING. Your last sentence seems to imply atheism is some alternate religion when it is the absence of it. It has little to do with morality or character, as we have seen time and time again in high-profile "Christians" over the years.

Sir, I am not an arbiter of morality, nor would I ever claim to be one. However, he has asked my opinion, I have stated it, and now I defend it. I feel that I do have solid moral ground to stand on, because this is the standard I hold myself to. Such is my advice to him. Have I lied before? Most certainly. Have I regretted it? You betcha. Am I perfect? No. Are you? I hardly think so.

I never claimed to be perfect, or even within a mile OF perfection. However, I don't make claims to any "high moral ground" when I have ALSO betrayed the very thing you advise this guy against. But I do appreciate your honesty by not claiming to have never lied.

Your argument focuses purely on the idea that not harming others justifies an act that otherwise would be condemned.

Condemned by who? Christians who have also lied? That would be hypocritical, would it not?

My argument focuses on the idea that there is more to life than balancing the scales, more to life than hurts or doesn't hurt, because what I believe I believe because it not only explains my life, my experiences but also those of others around me. It explains why and how I exist, why others exist, why I am taking part in this conversation right now.

And I support your right to believe as you wish. But it doesn't have anything to do with this person's dilemma.
While I don't fault the Scouts for requiring religious belief, as it IS their organization, after all, but that doesn't mean I think it's the end of the world if someone says they believe to get ahead and harm no one in the process. It's a minor issue, actually. Although you might disagree, atheists can be EXACTLY the same as Christians, with the one and only difference is their actual faith. And in my view, excluding them from an influential outfit like the Scouts is unfair. It's their right, but it's hardly a very Christian attitude.

One's beliefs dictate how they act, it is as simple as that. And whether one believes what one claims to is an entirely different matter. To shelve one's belief, even momentarily, at no harm to others, shows that that particular belief means less to them than the reason for shelving it.

Again, atheism is NOT a belief. It never was. My only point is that some falsehoods are harmless and outfits like the one under discussion are discriminatory. I assume, from the post above there are Muslims or Buddhists in the Scouts though, and I'll bet there are plenty of liars.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: tivodan1116 What is it about the Boy Scouts that you claim is prejudice? If a church did not allow an atheist to be their pastor, would that be prejudice? If a Republican campaigning for Congress did not want to hire a Democrat as his campaign manager, would that be prejudice? There are certain qualifications for certain things. That does not equal prejudice.

That's what I said.

[G. Adams]

Don't lie. Unless it's a matter of protecting your or a friends ass (doubly important in scouts...) just don't lie. It's not important enough to compromise yourself. If you agree with the rest of the scouts ethos then honour will be important to you, your word will be important to you. Keep your word, tell them your an atheist if your asked directly. If they throw you out, then so what? You'll be gutted for a while, definately. But at least you will have shown courage, instead of cowardice.

[Castle]

I hate to say this, I really do. And if I were you, I wouldn't listen to me. But:
Don't lie. Not because of anything like personal integrity, honesty, etc. But because, as a private organization, the Boy Scouts have the right to set certain standards for membership, however arbitrary or foolish those might be. By lying, you'd be circumventing those standards and denying them their rights to decide who they want in their organization. 'Tis better to try and fight injustice by confronting it head on than by submitting to it (and in doing so commit injustice of your own).
That was, incidentally, a half-hearted vote for option #2.

[ByaKya]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Muslims are welcome in Boy Scouts.

im not suprised at least one person lost the point of saying this to the scout leader, we cant all be on top of things.

I know the boy scouts are ok with it, but the bible thumping scout leader will most likely be pissed off about it, he would then have wished he shut up about the OPs religious affiliation.

Many evangelical christian fundamentalists think the only thing worse than an atheist, is a muslim.

So the OP gets his eagle badge, and the scout leader has nightmares about the coming islamic invasion. everyone wins

[Cephus]

Quote by: RickSp Exactly the sort of analogy one might expect from you phoenix. Christian compassion in evidence, once again.

But it is pretty accurate nonetheless. The BSA hates atheists, period. Why would anyone in their right mind choose to be a part of an organization that hates them? That's just beyond me.

[Matts]

Quote by: RickSp Lying to get ahead is far too common at any age. It would be a shame if that is the one lesson the Boy Souts teach.

Apart from completely agreeing on the point made by RickSp, I think I want to point out another aspect to this problem of lying. Namely, the fact that organisations like the Boy Scouts rely on deception to recruit new members into their ranks. It is your typical bait-and-switch game in which the customer is first lured in with promises of one thing (new friends, sense of fulfilment and purpose in life, etc) but is then delivered something that was not discussed prior to the purchase (obligation to undergo religious conversion). It is outrageous! How many would-be Boy Scouts actually know, prior to making a long-term commitment to the organisation, that at some point they may be expected to undergo religious conversion?

The recruitment techniques of Boy Scouts actually remind me of those used by scientologists. The recruitment and indoctrination of new scientologists is based on deception on a scale that surpasses any bait-switch scheme that I am currently aware of. The recruit is initially overwhelmed with mind-bogglingly vacuous self-help jargon about accessing their "full human potential" etc. When the unsuspecting victim takes the bait, he quickly finds that there was more to the offer then meets the eye: scientologists are expected to sacrifice every aspect of their lives (earnings, leisure, privacy, freedom of speech, sanity) to the most Orwellian cult subculture currently in existence. As if this wasn't enough, it is only after years of commitment, not to mention obscene amounts of money, that the meaning of all their toil is suddenly revealed...

Imagine sacrificing, say, ten years of your life for this organisation that takes your money and controls every aspect of your personal life even to the point of making you abandon all relations with your family and friends, only to hear that the reason for all your efforts is some cosmic devilry that took place about 75 million years ago involving an evil lord called Xenu whose ingenious solution to a galactic overpopulation problem (drop more than 13.5 trillion space aliens into volcanos and explode them with hydrogen bombs) has caused the bodies of all human beings thereafter to be infested with the souls of dead aliens! You also learn that the presence of these ancient alien souls in your body are the cause of all your life's problems and that your only hope of ever finding happiness and fulfilment is to work even harder and give even more ridiculous amounts of money to Scientology in order to have those pesky alien spirits exorcised!

I mean, PLEASE!! Isn't this the sort of thing that desperately needs to be discussed well before any serious commitment is made to a group?! Imagine if the Catholic church demanded years of dedication to some half-baked self-help philosophy and only then revealed the whole Adam-and-Eve/original-sin business? Now, I can't say I'm a big fan of Christianity, but at least they lay their cards on the table from the outset.

But the point I want to make with all this is: communities and organisations that are based on deceiving their members must be resisted. The worst thing that Nathan could do in his position, in my opinion, would be to partake in the game of deception by adding into it yet another round of lies. Instead of passively contributing to the fraudulent recruitment schemes of organisations like the Boy Scouts and exploitative cults like Scientology, people who are in the know should educate potential new recruits about what may be expected of them in the long run if they commit themselves to serving these communities.

[JTsteelblu]

[quote=Jakob;305924]Your stuck. The boy scouts do have a constitutional right to discriminate based on religion, being a private organisation.

I beg to differ. Private on the outside, but funded by the Feds in reality! I'll leave you to do this little bit of homework on your own, so no one can claim I'm making it up just to disrespect the Boy Scouts. Here's your assignment: Find out where the Boy Scout National Jamboree is held. Once you know that, find out if the Federal Government funds this place with American tax dollars, and how much they spend on it per year. Once you know how much that bill is and who pays it, find out how much the Boy Scouts pay to use this place. If you do all 3 of these things, I think it will become apparent that the Boy Scouts are a private organization in name only, and actually use tax dollars paid by ALL, homosexuals, atheists, and females alike.

When I was in Boy Scouts (and yes, I was an Eagle Scout, but still a practicing Christian at that time) I saw discrimination even then. I was, at the time, unaware of things like religious bigotry and homophobia, but I was well aware that certain fellow Scouts were being pushed around by the other Scouts. They were the “nerds” of our troop. Two come to mind even today. Both were new to Scouting, and hadn’t been brought up to be the outdoorsy type. They were teased. Not just boyhood ribbing, but called horrible names, and had what then was called “Practical Jokes” played on them during camp outs, many of which were at least dangerous if not life threatening. Both were pushed around physically, and one of the two was “asked” to leave the troop for being in two fights on one winter camp out. I got a merit badge for surviving a three day camp out in the cold Illinois winter, and Clyde Levitt got thrown out for defending himself. There was a rule in our troop that said that if any troop member got in two physical altercations they would be tossed out. Knowing this, several of the older boys that didn’t like Clyde (he WAS weird, but that shouldn’t be enough to get thrown out) set him up by pushing him to the brink of madness by tormenting him to the point he FINALLY defended himself, and then getting another of the older boys to do it to him again at the same camp out. The two older boys got one demerit (I think that’s what they called a “black mark” back then), but that was two strikes in a row for Clyde and out he went! When I told my Scout Troop leader that I had heard some of the guys setting this all up, he asked my parents to tell me not to stir up trouble. I went to the very next meeting, told all everything I knew about it, and then quit the Troop and never dealt with Scouting again. I knew nothing of Federal funding back then, but I DID know that what they had allowed to happen to this kid was not only wrong, but at it’s basics one of the most un-Christian things I had ever seen. It took me a few more years, and a few more un-Christian events done in plain view by people that were supposed to be Christian, many in authority roles, to denounce my Lutheran baptism, and Christianity altogether. Now that I know the difference between faith and religion, the world is a much easier place to figure out!

Friend, you are wise beyond your years, and I think you should do whatever YOU think is right for you and your convictions….just be true to YOURSELF!
JT (former Boy Scout....former Christian....still Human!)

[Kathleen E.]

"Pretending to be a Christian would eventually lead you to become a Christian"? Hmmmm I bet it's happened before. God works in mysterious ways...

Peace,
Kathy E.
Retired Episcopal Priest

[Kathleen E.]

I should add, I'm not exactly a fan of the Boy Scouts. I don't consider them a Christian organization at all.

Peace,
Kathy E.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Nathan Struth Hey thanks, I think I'll keep quiet to them. Unfortunately I might be choosing #1.

You could chose the Unitarian belief, which I believe has a merit badge. The Unitarians are primarilly Humanist embracing a variety of views on God, from atheism to agnostic to deism and monism leaving the existence of God up to teh individual.

[shunyadragon]

Quote by: Kathleen E. I should add, I'm not exactly a fan of the Boy Scouts. I don't consider them a Christian organization at all. Peace, Kathy E.

The Boy Scouts do not consider themselves a Christian organization. I am a Baha'i and my son became an Eagle Scout.

[RickSp]

To say that the Boy Scouts are a Christian organization is simply false. They are happy as long as the Scout acknowledges a supreme being of some sort. In the case of Eagle Scout Darrell Lambert he was told that even acknowledging "Mother Nature" would suffice. Defining oneself as a Jeffersonian deist would probably make the scoutmaster happy. That is a hair's breadth from atheism anyway.

In a larger sense, Boy Scouting has almost nothing to do with religion. I enjoyed being a scout for the camping, hiking and other related activities. To represent the BSA as a religious organization, as some here have done, is nonsense.

[Kuroko]

Nathan, pull him aside.

Ask him, as serrious as you can while retaining both an innocence and that sense I get that you have a wisdom which has always been with you and for some reason has always been a step ahead of your years.

Ask them if you think you are cut out to be eagle, to be honest with you as you really want to know thier oppinion, the answer will probobly be "I think you have a great shot at it..*some words I can't predict about what you need to focus, no, some thing you need to finish or do*" ask him "If I have a shot at it is there any thing else that would stop me? one thing I am concerned about is that it was mentioned you would have a problem with having an atheist being an eagle"

He will back bedal, thinking he has been made to look discriminatory in a way, I think he puts on a bit too much of a fake happiness myself
Tell him "I'm an atheist only because I haven't yet found any thing yet in my short 16 years which I have really been comfortable, for my own reasons I simply call myself an atheist I'm sorry" but really appologize for it, make the point that you are sorry and even say you wish it weren't so.

Erm.. If he offers you to help you find another path tell him your ways have always been to look alone.

erm.. you will word it differently, atleast take one or two things from this

[Amuse]

[quote=The Bacon Guy;306238]It looks good on a CV.

Quote by: The Bacon Guy How would lying to the prejudiced organisation constitute untruthfulness to oneself?

The issue isn't about lying to the prejudiced organization. If you disagree with the orgaization's ideology you would be lying to yourself with the belief that the organizations symbols of achievment doesn't really stand for or represent their ideology but instead stands for your ideology. Maybe a more drastic representation of my point would be to ask you this- If you don't agree with "RADICAL" muslims ideology would you fake being one just so you could wear the cool headsock and carry an AK47 because it looks good when the terrorists come knocking at your door?
The eagle scout badge, like any other icon is symbolic of a belief system. If you disagree with the belief system why give it power by immersing yourself in it?

Quote by: The Bacon Guy306238 He would be lying to the scout leader; not to himself.

Lying to anyone is also lying to yourself. How can you make a lie seem truthful to someone else unless you believe it yourself?

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Nathan Struth I'm an aethist. My Scout leader says that he's going to have problems if I"ms till an aethist when I go for eagle. He says I can't become eagle if I'm an aethist. I've allready told him I'm one and if he loved Jesus so much why wouldn't he be tolerant of my beliefs? In scouts if you believe in god you're ok for eagle. My options are 1. Lie: Say I've found new belief in a higher power. 2. present an argument: "a scout is honest" and tell them what I believe. 3. Leave the troop (I have friends in there:() Please present your options or tell me what you would do if you were in my boots. I'm at ends here. I'm allmost 16 (dec 22) at the star badge. What should I do?

Leave the troop. The boyscouts are discriminatory towards non-believers.