Importance of family

[Athena]

There are two basic ways to order people, family order and military order. Family order is very important to democracy, however, socialism does well with military order. Ancient civilizations used family order, militazied modern nations use military order. Christians pride themselves in having family values and associate this with morality, however, it is offensive when they think it is because of them the world has known morals and family values, because what they claiming is the right and good of Christianity is universal. The following is taken from a translation of the Chinese book "I Ching".

Women's appropriate place is within; men's, without. When men and women keep to their proper places they act in addourd with heaven's great norm. Among the members of a family are the dignified master and mistress whom we term Father and Mother. When Rather, mother, sons, elder and younger brothers all act in a manner suited to their various positions within the family, when husbands play their proper role and wives are truly wifely, the way of that family runs straight. It is by the proper regulation of each family that the whole world is stablized.

[Zhavric]

Tell me more about what you mean by "military order" in terms of raising children.

[Kuldeep]

What Athena meant, probably by Millatary Order & Family Order is DESCIPLINE.

I do agree this descipline is very much essential for all the systems to function properly. Family system is not common in humen only but in many other species of birds and animalsas well. I would not wonder if it might exist even in insects and micro-organisms. Thatway, I believe family system is a natural instinct existing in living beings as a protection to smooth survival like any other bio & non bio protections.

Then, finally breaking of this descipline at any level and by any amount do create most of the existing day to day problems in family, society and in the world as a whole. To conclude, I think descipline is basic requirement to have both military as well as family in order. So important is not family order but, order in the family (Descipline) :)

[Athena]

Cute Kuldeep. Twenty of us gathered for Thanks Giving and some teenagers crossed the line a tiny bit, and my son over reacted, now I have some mending to do. Fortunately, all in all it was a great feast. We just need to instill some discipline, so we can avoid unpleasantness next time. So I appreciate the comment-

So important is not family order but, order in the family (Descipline)

However, I wasn't even thinking of discipline when writing of military and family order. In the family, discipline must be internalized. In military one only need obey orders.

We had a door factory were the owner insisted everyone was as family, and these people worked together with special bond. Everyone did for everyone else, as we would do for family. When the business was sold to owners in another state who attempted to run the door factory for profit, there were so many problems the place failed miserably and was closed. How much pay is enough when there is no personal satisfaction in working?

Military order- a hiarchy of authority, autocracy. Every job is defined in detail, and everyone who takes a position in the military or industry, does it exactly the same as the person before. All important decisions are made by superiors, who write the book, and everyone else follows orders. Being insubordient is not tolerated. (a condition sure to bring out the worst in people) Some families are run this way, but they are pretty misable families.

Democracy or family order. While there is strong leadership, this leadership is not isolated or unaproachable. This leadership encourages others to ignitate new ideas, or give feed back on how things are going. How everyone feels is very important. Cooperation and helping each other is very important. We share what we have and what we are doing.

This is kind of the ideological difference between Sparta the first socialist/military state and Athens the first democracy. Athena valued the family of Gods and Sparta cared only about its military might, not family. Democracy is not efficient. Military order is efficient, and completely crushes individual liberty and power.

We now institutionalize our children at the earliest age, so Mom can go to work. Until rather recently fathers supported their wives who took care of their homes, and this family order made our democracy strong.

Since liberating women, everyone is enslaved to state, and material glut has taken the place of enjoying family and friends. Children's needs are met with money, not a mother who is at home to comfort and care for them. Like Sparta, everyone serves the state and family gets what is left over. This is what I mean by military order. With everyone working for industry, and no one staying home to be homemakers, we are order by military order, not family order. This is taking our lives ordered by the clock a step further, into an industrial society, where family is treated more as a nuisance than the goal of our lives.

The new privacy laws that prevent family from doing what family did when someone was ill, and enable the government to track us through every medical contact, is pushing the military order of our lives too far. Closing community rooms to the public, unless paid staff is on site, is taking military order too far. In many small ways we are destroying the human bonds that once bonded us. "It is the law." "It is policy." It is dehumanizing. It is the authority over us that we once stood against.

[Athena]

Yipes, I just realized I seriously needed to correct spelling in the Quote. I am amazed anyone could have understood it enough to reply. Sorry, I keep living with this image of myself being prefect and not making mistakes, and this image keeps getting disturbed by my errors.

Women's appropriate place is within; men's, without. When men and women keep to their proper places they act in accord with heaven's great norm. Among the members of a family are the dignified master and mistress whom we term Father and Mother. When father, mother, sons, elder and younger brothers all act in a manner suited to their various positions within the family, when husbands play their proper role and wives are truly wifely, the way of that family runs straight. It is by the proper regulation of each family that the whole world is stablized

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Athena It is by the proper regulation of each family that the whole world is stablized

Though, when I wrote my last post, I did not think about the point of distortion in family descipline due to women becoming working hand.The whole thing which you, Athena, mentioned in your long post is centered around the DESCIPLINE only. You have very rightly said children get money but not the mother. I would try to put "IT" somewhat in different language.

As you too said family instinct existed in humen beings as in many other species as well. Men being physically stronger automatically got selected as the leader of the family and rest of the family members including wife so much so remained followers. Men became bread earners while women took charge of raring up children and taking care of all the house hold jobs. By and by this became set "family order" and also "order (descipline) in family. Love and bondage too evolved as a matter of remaining in together as one group. But then women education, desires of living luxurious life, need for more income started women also coming out for earning. To my mind, this is the main reason for disturbing the family order or descipline of the family. In most of the families we have two leaders instead of nicely accepted one in past. The most affected lot now, naturally have been the children who failed to find difference between Mom and Dad. I feel they lost both.!!!!
Yes, it might be a transition phase. Women's better seen performance outside (service) may gadually make men unimportant and possibly over a long period of time remain inside and take the charge of household and children. Thus, the trend would be reversed and the lost Order of the Family would be restored. The sonner it would happen the better it is for POOR CHILDREN!!!! :)

[samsara15]

I don't think the intent was what happened, when women went to work. The idea was that the workplace would make itself more family friendly, and men would assume some of the homemaking responsibilities, which turned out to be an overly optimistic expectation, on both counts. The workplace made no changes at all to accomodate women, and men didn't change their roles very much, either, so the children got lost. However, since there are so many single parents, something had to be done, in any case. I am not a great fan of discipline...but we could use a lot more self-discipline in our culture. People without self-discipline need discipline imposed from outside.

We are a very materialistic culure, and our community life has fallen to pieces. Can you imagine us gathering together to vote or discuss issues, in a public form, like the ancient Greeks did?

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: samsara15 I am not a great fan of discipline...but we could use a lot more self-discipline in our culture. People without self-discipline need discipline imposed from outside.

Come what may the net result of working women definitely has been severe deteriorating effect on the family and the children. You are right to ask what can be done about it! Yes, self descipline is the tool which can make both husband and wife to understand rationally what should be provided to their children so that they do not feel isolated and seek and fall into bad company. At least up to teenage level they should have an affectionate look and proper care from parents, teachers and relatives in general, mother in particular.

Imposed descipline could be by way of government laws and regulations specially laid for parents for the proper raring up of children. Some propaganda through video and audio publicity would help. But main tool is the tool of understanding between husband and wife. Parental love for children need be rekindled which is shadowed/smogged with materialistic lust. If this tool of understanding is missing, to my mind, none of induced desciplines would work!:(

We are a very materialistic culure, and our community life has fallen to pieces. Can you imagine us gathering together to vote or discuss issues, in a public form, like the ancient Greeks did?

My idea of gathering together is to start at micro level i.e. individual family stage since problem has started at that level only.

I do not know exactly what Greek did for which problem, but I am sure if some course as syllabus is introduced at college and university level to teach would be husbands and wives the responsibilities towards their incoming children. Thisway only, they would understand that the way they have suffered for want of their parental love their children should not!!!!

[Athena]

Quote by: Kuldeep Though, when I wrote my last post, I did not think about the point of distortion in family descipline due to women becoming working hand.The whole thing which you, Athena, mentioned in your long post is centered around the DESCIPLINE only. You have very rightly said children get money but not the mother. I would try to put "IT" somewhat in different language. As you too said family instinct existed in humen beings as in many other species as well. Men being physically stronger automatically got selected as the leader of the family and rest of the family members including wife so much so remained followers. Men became bread earners while women took charge of raring up children and taking care of all the house hold jobs. By and by this became set "family order" and also "order (descipline) in family. Love and bondage too evolved as a matter of remaining in together as one group. But then women education, desires of living luxurious life, need for more income started women also coming out for earning. To my mind, this is the main reason for disturbing the family order or descipline of the family. In most of the families we have two leaders instead of nicely accepted one in past. The most affected lot now, naturally have been the children who failed to find difference between Mom and Dad. I feel they lost both.!!!! Yes, it might be a transition phase. Women's better seen performance outside (service) may gadually make men unimportant and possibly over a long period of time remain inside and take the charge of household and children. Thus, the trend would be reversed and the lost Order of the Family would be restored. The sonner it would happen the better it is for POOR CHILDREN!!!! :)

Thank you for giving to thought to this most important subject. May I please ask you and others to give more thought to what industrialization did to us?

At what point in time did men begin leaving their families at home, and the family responsibility get dumped on women? Early in the industrial era, the whole family worked together, father, mother and children. How I wish we would give some thought to how industrial economics changed our lives.

Saying men will become unimportant and get left at home to raise the children, was a very sexist statement, to which I am very sensitive? What is unimportant about taking care of the human needs and raising children?

[Athena]

Quote by: Kuldeep Come what may the net result of working women definitely has been severe deteriorating effect on the family and the children. You are right to ask what can be done about it! Yes, self descipline is the tool which can make both husband and wife to understand rationally what should be provided to their children so that they do not feel isolated and seek and fall into bad company. At least up to teenage level they should have an affectionate look and proper care from parents, teachers and relatives in general, mother in particular. Perfectly said they should have an affectionate look and proper care from parents, teachers and relatives in general, mother in particular . Only you way understimate the importance of the father! You seem to be forgetting the influence your father had on you? That is curious, why would you do that? Any way, how does a materialistic society bring this about? I think if we answer this, the conflict with Islam will end. Imposed descipline could be by way of government laws and regulations specially laid for parents for the proper raring up of children. Some propaganda through video and audio publicity would help. But main tool is the tool of understanding between husband and wife. Parental love for children need be rekindled which is shadowed/smogged with materialistic lust. If this tool of understanding is missing, to my mind, none of induced desciplines would work!:( No law can make people behave in a desirable way. What you say is like saying a computer can rule us. Unless people are bonded they will not choose to do the right thing, but will instead choose for selfish desires, and the whole of civilization is destroyed. You are helping me say, what I want to say, thank you. My idea of gathering together is to start at micro level i.e. individual family stage since problem has started at that level only. I do not know exactly what Greek did for which problem, but I am sure if some course as syllabus is introduced at college and university level to teach would be husbands and wives the responsibilities towards their incoming children. Thisway only, they would understand that the way they have suffered for want of their parental love their children should not!!!!

War can bond people, and move them to give their lives for others. Religion can bond people and move them to sacrifice their lives. Family may or may not bond people. What are our human needs, and how are they met in family? Does an industrial society favor families and harm them?

[Athena]

Quote by: samsara15 I don't think the intent was what happened, when women went to work. The idea was that the workplace would make itself more family friendly, and men would assume some of the homemaking responsibilities, which turned out to be an overly optimistic expectation, on both counts. The workplace made no changes at all to accomodate women, and men didn't change their roles very much, either, so the children got lost. However, since there are so many single parents, something had to be done, in any case. I am not a great fan of discipline...but we could use a lot more self-discipline in our culture. People without self-discipline need discipline imposed from outside. We are a very materialistic culure, and our community life has fallen to pieces. Can you imagine us gathering together to vote or discuss issues, in a public form, like the ancient Greeks did?

Why do you think this happen? Why didn't industry better met our needs? Who is running this show? Do Muslims have a point when they reject our apparent values? The world would be a much better place if Christians and Muslims would come together and together promote family values and oppose materialism and the military/industrial order that is swallowing up our lives, but could we give up our materialism for our human relationships?

[Kuldeep]

Athena, I am fully understanding your sentiments and have given my final suggestion for rekindling family love first between wife and husband and then extending it down to children. I would like to reproduce same suggestion again for for your intense attention and action:

I do not know exactly what Greek did for which problem, but I am sure if some course as syllabus is introduced at college and university level to teach would be husbands and wives the responsibilities towards their incoming children. Thisway only, they would understand that the way they have suffered for want of their parental love, their children should not!!!!

As regards you other points I stressed upon mother more than father because child has biologically more attachment/closeness towards mother. Father's role had been more important due his physical and mental strenth/balance. Father in past days had always played the role of true and sincere leader.

However I do not feel simple joibnig of Muslims and christains would improve family bonds to solve children's problems.

The main reason of losing the family bond is working women and double leadership in one family. Industrilization too had the effect but not as much as from an important member of family, the mother!!!

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Athena Why do you think this happen? Why didn't industry better met our needs? Who is running this show? Do Muslims have a point when they reject our apparent values? The world would be a much better place if Christians and Muslims would come together and together promote family values and oppose materialism and the military/industrial order that is swallowing up our lives, but could we give up our materialism for our human relationships?

Please try to solve one problem at one time. Who would bring Fundamentalists from both the religions under one roof and who would dictate the terms? I think it should be a third party...some Hindu saint unbiased one!!!!:)

Materialism can never go away from human mind, but then love, responsibility and affection etc for one's own children could be re-kindled as suggested in earlier post.