Would you denounce your faith or beliefs to save a life?

[HowDoYouKnow?]

Quote by: phoenix_fire That's not really accurate. People have doubts and tough times and God is lenient with that. But if you outright denounce Him to others, it's different. Jesus says: "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. " "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. "--Matthew 10:26-28, 32-33

God is lenient with genocide, murder, and rape? But hes going to damn you if you verbally 1 time to save your childs life, denounce him, because the bible says so? Seems like a reasonable explanation. I have no issues with all people following there faith and having differences in ideas and gods, once again faith is not the issue it is blind faith. Where is the morality in this? You can murder and rape, but do not deny me (god) to another.

Im gonna get back to what Chimowowo asked, as Its a very good point and question. So me being a non-believer should not believe in "god" because even if I wholeheartedly do at some point, I have already damned myself? So what about the born again christians? All going to hell? Or are the only ones that are damned, the ones that lose faith, and then gain it back? Is it only the ones that lie about their beliefs once they already believed? This is why the "unforgivable sin" has little "known" about it and is a debate even among Christians.

[shield772]

one can be a non-believer and then find belief and be saved it's when you have faith and denounce him for a purely physical reason that damns your soul

[Mr. Blue Sky]

so you can save your kid and become a non-believer, then find him again and be saved!

he is merciful, you guys

[shield772]

no doesn't work that way

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Quote by: shield772 no doesn't work that way

Not even if I confess my sins and do my penance?

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Mr. Blue Sky Jesus also said: "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of my brothers, you did for me." Matthew 25:40. and "I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me." Matthew 25:45 Therefore in disowning your son before men, you have disowned Jesus and will be disowned before your father in heaven.

You're not disowning your kid. Are the police guilty of murder when a hostage situation goes bad? I think not. Jesus did not want people denying Him no matter what. Reread what I posted: He says not to fear those that can only destroy the body.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: HowDoYouKnow? God is lenient with genocide, murder, and rape? But hes going to damn you if you verbally 1 time to save your childs life, denounce him, because the bible says so? Seems like a reasonable explanation. I have no issues with all people following there faith and having differences in ideas and gods, once again faith is not the issue it is blind faith. Where is the morality in this? You can murder and rape, but do not deny me (god) to another. Im gonna get back to what Chimowowo asked, as Its a very good point and question. So me being a non-believer should not believe in "god" because even if I wholeheartedly do at some point, I have already damned myself? So what about the born again christians? All going to hell? Or are the only ones that are damned, the ones that lose faith, and then gain it back? Is it only the ones that lie about their beliefs once they already believed? This is why the "unforgivable sin" has little "known" about it and is a debate even among Christians.

You totally misapprehend.

[HowDoYouKnow?]

Quote by: shield772 no doesn't work that way

Who says it doesnt work that way? If it works one way then it could surely work the other way, could it not? I dont remember ever seeing the bible differentiate between the two or even verifying one is ok, however I could have missed something. That IS after all, why the "unforgivable sin" is such a hot debate even among Christians, and between diff. denominations of christianity. So are you telling me your interpretation of the bible is the true way? How do you conclude this? Not to sound undermining or facetious but this is only a small portion of why I dont share your beliefs. As secure as Christians say or feel their religion is, there are too many different way to interpret the ideas, and everyone whos interpretation is different vows they are correct. Without an explanation of the "facts" (using that word lightly), you are only left with interpretation and assumption, and that doesnt stand as a valid argument, it is only opinion. Where in the bible does it state a difference? Honestly it could say it, I just dont know were. But if it doesnt, and then you have essentially allowed the death of said child, for no reason other than fear for yourself and because you believe your ASSUMPTION is correct.

[HowDoYouKnow?]

Quote by: phoenix_fire You totally misapprehend.

Im not sure that I would agree. If you could be a little more detailed on why you believe I misunderstand you. You did say god is leniant with this. I dont try to read beween the lines with your statements, I take them for how you have presented them. And I have seemingly interpreted what you have given me. Somewhat the same as you seem to have done with the bible verses. You have interpreted to the best of your knowldge what you were given to work within.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Quote by: phoenix_fire You're not disowning your kid. Are the police guilty of murder when a hostage situation goes bad? I think not. Jesus did not want people denying Him no matter what. Reread what I posted: He says not to fear those that can only destroy the body.

No police are not guilty of murder when a hostage situation goes bad just like you wouldn't be guilty if this hypotheetical situation went bad. The man who shoots is the man who kills and the man who is guilty.

However, I think letting a man end your child's life would not be what Jesus would desire in this paticular case. If Jesus, or any other moral human being for that matter, were behind that man with the gun at your kid's head telling you to deny him to save your kid's life, and you looked him in the eye, he'd nod yes.

I would fear those men with guns pointed at my child I think they would have power over my soul at that point. Killing my child would harm, if not destroy my soul, and I would imagine my wife's as well.

[HowDoYouKnow?]

Quote by: phoenix_fire You're not disowning your kid. Are the police guilty of murder when a hostage situation goes bad? I think not. Jesus did not want people denying Him no matter what. Reread what I posted: He says not to fear those that can only destroy the body.

Not to mention, you would not simply be watching a "situation go bad", you would be contributing to it going bad. You know that there is a good possiblility it would because of YOUR choice. I think that analogy stinks as far as a comparison. Im sorry but thats the way I feel. Doesnt seem in the least to be even a similar situation.

Now, if a cop, knowingly did or said something that he/she knew would ultimately contribute the demise of the said hostages but did or said it anyways. Then yes, he has essentially contributed to the murder of said hostages. Mabey that would have been a better analogy? Yet it still seems to work against what you were attempting to achieve.

[HowDoYouKnow?]

Im going to take a break for a bit from this discussion (to cook some dinner), and allow all my questions I have posed to be answered, and all of you to continue your points. Hopefully some more of the questions Ive asked can be answered. Thank you all for your contributions to the discussion.

Peace!

[Chimowowo]

Quote by: shield772 one can be a non-believer and then find belief and be saved it's when you have faith and denounce him for a purely physical reason that damns your soul

Wait, so to deny God (when you believe in him, but you say you don't) is unforgivable, but to denounce him, and curse him when you don't believe in him, is forgivable.

I guess Peter is burning in hell then for denouncing Jesus.

Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. "--Matthew 10:26-28, 32-33

Immediately a rooster crowed. 75Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken: "Before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times." And he went outside and wept bitterly. --Matthew 26:69-75

And yet you say it's only wrong to deny him for physical reasons. Is being forced to lie to save lives, really a wordly gain?

Lets look at another senario. Lets say someones kids are killed, and he gets upset at god, and curses god and renouces his faith. He can never be saved? Isn't the whole thing to Christianity that you can always be saved? That's why Jesus died for you guys.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

The fact of the matter here is that we'd all get to keep our kids and these guys wouldn't because of belief. It's powerful, I'll give you that. I always thought that the Bible was a guide to morality, and I find it pretty immoral and selfish to let someone kill your child. Buuuut whatever.

And shield, you never answered my question: Not even if I confess my sins and do my penance can I be saved after denying God? Even if it's like a million billion Hail Marys?

[shield772]

I am not a catholic, I don't do penance.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Quote by: shield772 I am not a catholic, I don't do penance.

But if you WERE and you DID?

[shield772]

ask a catholic they have some efd up dogma

[JohnMK]

If by denounce you mean merely uttering the words, and perhaps appearing to live up to them for a brief spell at least, sure I might do that, depending on the particular circumstance naturally. Meanwhile, I'd be plotting escape from my duress.

[HowDoYouKnow?]

Quote by: JohnMK If by denounce you mean merely uttering the words, and perhaps appearing to live up to them for a brief spell at least, sure I might do that, depending on the particular circumstance naturally. Meanwhile, I'd be plotting escape from my duress.

Yes, that is all Im asking. Saying something does not mean it is what you believe in your "soul" or "heart". Yet, so many christians believe that this tiny lie that lasts only minutes is not worth the physical lives of their children.

I think that to whomever can honestly say they wouldnt state this lie to a man with a gun to their said childs head, should mabey look at what you are saying a bit. Your bible (im assuming) you would state teaches "morality" (using this term lightly as it is open for interpretation), yet where is the morality in contributing to your childs death? What if that wasn't a gun to your childs head, but a nuclear missile aimed at your town, and a extremist group said to denounce verbally your god or else? Would you lie then, for a brief moment? Where is the line? If you dont have a line, then where is the "morality" in this? Im still awaiting so many answers including how I have misinterpreted Phoenix. I know it can be hard to stand up for your beliefs, but isnt that what you have done saying you would allow your said child to die? So if you can allow your said child to die for you, you can surely explain your possition on this.

Where is your line? What about born again Christians? What about non-believers deciding to belief? Do we all go to hell? If someone killed your said child and you swore against god out of anger and denounced him as your savior, but them later decided it wasnt his fault, are you going to hell? Where in the bible does it state a difference between the scenerios and rules you have argued? If you cant find that info, who are you to make such interpretations? After all this, do you still really think religion is peoples saviors and guide to ethics? All Im being proven from some of the comments, is that religion will be the death of us all, whether 1 religion is right, all religion is right, or all are wrong. Religious differences create wars and validates death for so many, why? Death should not be okay just because it is the name of your "god". I dont think that morality is defined within the confines of your religious beliefs, do you? If my religion were based on "The Coffee Goddess Caffeine", would it be moral for me to allow my child to die, because I didnt want to anger "her" at me, and possibly commit myself to "The Underworld of Slurpees" for eternal damnation? Not trying to sound demeaning, but why would it be different for me to lie about my beliefs, than it would be for christians? And stating my "beliefs are not the correct beliefs" is not a valid arguement, especially if they are MY beliefs. Not so different from yours, in the fact that they are simply religious ideas, is it still moral in your eyes? Is it immoral in your eyes, because you dont have the same religious beliefs as me with my "Caffeine Goddess"?

[D_Chilli]

I find it hard to believe that someone would risk their child's life so that they would not have to suffer. I am not a religious person, but I can tell you for sure that, if I was, I would rather be damned in hell for eternity than watch my children die knowing that I could have sacrificed my own being for them. By not saving another's life when given the opportunity, isn't that a little selfish and against what religion stands for? If God is all knowing, than He would know the situation at hand, and do you really think that He would really let anyone be damned for saving a life, no matter the situation?