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Nathan Struth · Nov 16, 2006, 01:13 pm

Hello, I'm an aethist and I was wondering what this world would be without the idae of god but keeping the same morals that judaism and Christianity preach. Does anyone think we're ready to drop this allmighty power from crushing us?

I say we aren't ready. I dont' think the majority would view things through a lense of logic and sense. But we could always fix that by schooling them in morals and what's right and wrong. (wasn't that the parents job?). So are we ready?

Captain Chaos · Nov 16, 2006, 01:15 pm

I believe logic and sense will not lead one to dropping the concept of a creator - although it will lead one to dropping the current mainstream religions.

phoenix_fire · Nov 16, 2006, 01:18 pm

So very disturbing and frankly sickening.

Captain Chaos · Nov 16, 2006, 01:24 pm

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Quote by: phoenix_fire

So very disturbing and frankly sickening.

The current mainstream religions are disturbing, in my opinion.

tivodan1116 · Nov 16, 2006, 01:28 pm

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Quote by: Nathan Struth

I say we aren't ready. I dont' think the majority would view things through a lense of logic and sense.

By what basis do you assume that a lens of logic and sense is exclusive of religion?

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Quote by: Captain Chaos

The current mainstream religions are disturbing, in my opinion.

I am not sure, do you mean "religions" or do you actually mean "religious organizations"?

Considering the ACTUAL message of Jesus I can't see how you could find that disturbing. What humans have done with that message is another story.

phoenix_fire · Nov 16, 2006, 01:42 pm

Well said, Tivo.

Captain Chaos · Nov 16, 2006, 01:51 pm

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Quote by: tivodan1116

By what basis do you assume that a lens of logic and sense is exclusive of religion?

I am not sure, do you mean "religions" or do you actually mean "religious organizations"?

Considering the ACTUAL message of Jesus I can't see how you could find that disturbing. What humans have done with that message is another story.

Does the message of Jesus as recorded in the Bible include the belief in a God who condemns the majority of his creations to eternal torture? I most certainly find that disturbing. How could anyone with a conscience not find that disturbing?

phoenix_fire · Nov 16, 2006, 02:30 pm

People condemn themselves. God has done more than any fair-minded person would think required to try to save us from that but all most people want to do is spit in His face for it. You want conscience? Since when have you ever died for someone?

Cephus · Nov 16, 2006, 02:39 pm

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Quote by: phoenix_fire

So very disturbing and frankly sickening.

Religion? Yeah, I'll agree with you there.

Captain Chaos · Nov 16, 2006, 02:39 pm

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Quote by: Phoenix Fire

People condemn themselves.

This is self delusion. People do unpleasant things, but none of them are worthy of eternal damnation.

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God has done more than any fair-minded person would think required to try to save us from that but all most people want to do is spit in His face for it.

More self delusion. I do not believe that the Christian religion is a true religion. Disbelief is not the same thing as disrespect. And besides, even spitting in God's face would not warrant eternal torture.

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Since when have you ever died for someone?

Just last Tuesday!

Jesus' dying for others is very noble. I recognize that. That does not make eternal torture morally acceptable, or believable.

phoenix_fire · Nov 16, 2006, 03:38 pm

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Quote by: Cephus

Religion? Yeah, I'll agree with you there.

You knew that's not what I meant. And I detest intentional obtuseness.

phoenix_fire · Nov 16, 2006, 04:05 pm

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Quote by: Captain Chaos

This is self delusion. People do unpleasant things, but none of them are worthy of eternal damnation.

I hardly think that they are worthy of paradise. Not only that, but they are simply symptoms of a deeper dark. I believe that Heaven is the place we go to be with God forever. People choose whether or not they like that idea, and the alternative isn't that great. Besides. In most countries, the penalty for treason is, indeed, death.

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More self delusion. I do not believe that the Christian religion is a true religion. Disbelief is not the same thing as disrespect. And besides, even spitting in God's face would not warrant eternal torture.

Your favorite word again. Yet I believe you to be deluded. And yes, I think that the way people treat God is disrespectful.

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Just last Tuesday!

Liar!

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Jesus' dying for others is very noble. I recognize that. That does not make eternal torture morally acceptable, or believable.

Who are you to say that? He made a way out. No excuses. Torture doesn't even have to be an issue, yet you're too proud and self-righteous to even see that. So frustrating.

Captain Chaos · Nov 16, 2006, 04:47 pm

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Quote by: Phoenix Fire

I hardly think that they are worthy of paradise.

That does not mean they are worthy of eternal torture.

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People choose whether or not they like that idea, and the alternative isn't that great.

Disbelief is not the same thing as choosing not to be with God forever. If God is loving and kind, I most certainly choose to be with him forever. I still do not believe that Christianity is true, in its metaphysical claims.

Also, the alternative does not have to be eternal torture.

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Besides. In most countries, the penalty for treason is, indeed, death.

Death, not eternal torture. Besides which, disrespect is not reason. Disbelief is certainly not treason.

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Your favorite word again.

Which word is that?

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Yet I believe you to be deluded.

You are wrong.

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And yes, I think that the way people treat God is disrespectful.

You believe that holding the opinion that the evidence does not warrant a belief in the Christian god is disrespectful towards God?

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Liar!

No way!

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Who are you to say that?

A guy with an opinion.

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He made a way out. No excuses.

Finding the evidence exceedingly unconvincing is indeed an excuse.

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Torture doesn't even have to be an issue, yet you're too proud and self-righteous to even see that. So frustrating.

My conscience is repulsed by the idea of eternal torture. That is not pride, that is honesty.

G. Adams · Nov 16, 2006, 05:14 pm

It already has been dropped by the majority in the UK. People only claim CofE so they can get a church wedding. Take a look at this 42% polled in the UK think faith is as evil as small pox.

The majority in this country have a new deity to worship and it's name is Government. When tragedy comes the people offer up their liberties as a libation to Big Brother and his archishop the Rt.Hon. Tony Blair.

Had to shove that in, sorry...

Hostile55 · Nov 16, 2006, 05:21 pm

Question to Pheonix Fire:

On the subject of eternal Damnation; Doesn't God have infinite power? If so He must then choose not to stop people going to hell, if they indeed end up in hell. But surely He loves everybody unconditionally. So why would He do choose to not stop them from going to hell? Also, if He gave us the ability to rationalise and choose our own path, why doesn't He also provide us with concrete, irrefutable proof that He exists? Like actually presenting Himself to each and evey one of us so we can see Him and saying "Here I am. The one that made you." I mean, omnipotent is omnipotent.

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The majority in this country have a new deity to worship and it's name is Government. When tragedy comes the people offer up their liberties as a libation to Big Brother and his archishop the Rt.Hon. Tony Blair.

Lets be fair. Only 14% of the ellectorate actually voted for Labour and few people like the knew draconian measures that are being implemented of late.

brien · Nov 16, 2006, 05:38 pm

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Quote by: Captain Chaos

This is self delusion. People do unpleasant things, but none of them are worthy of eternal damnation.

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Well if there is a God, and if there is eternal damnation, then certainly murder would qualify.

Autolykos · Nov 16, 2006, 05:40 pm

Against my better judgement, perhaps, I am going to jump in here.

Phoenix, why do you get so offended every time someone discusses alternatives to Christianity, or religion in general?

- Rob

Captain Chaos · Nov 16, 2006, 05:46 pm

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Quote by: brien

Well if there is a God, and if there is eternal damnation, then certainly murder would qualify.

I disagree. Murder is bad. But I cannot see it being worthy of eternal torture.

If someone raped and killed my kids, I would want them live every moment of pain and lost experiences that they caused, from the perspectives of everyone involved. I would want them to undergo a rape and murder themselves.

However, I would not want them to suffer forever.

Even if they deserved 1000 years of torture, that would be an infinitely small punishment compared to eternal torture.

Infinite punishment cannot fit a finite crime.

Autolykos · Nov 16, 2006, 05:49 pm

I know this isn't quite on-topic, but...

Captain, what would that punishment do for you? Nothing would be able to bring your kids back to life.

- Rob

Captain Chaos · Nov 16, 2006, 05:51 pm

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Quote by: Autolykos

I know this isn't quite on-topic, but...

Captain, what would that punishment do for you? Nothing would be able to bring your kids back to life.

- Rob

It would teach that person to truly feel and understand the harm that he has caused, so that in the future he would be less inclined to do it.

Nov 16, 2006, 01:13 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Nathan Struth don't care Location: NY Posts: 267	Are we Ready To Drop God? Hello, I'm an aethist and I was wondering what this world would be without the idae of god but keeping the same morals that judaism and Christianity preach. Does anyone think we're ready to drop this allmighty power from crushing us? I say we aren't ready. I dont' think the majority would view things through a lense of logic and sense. But we could always fix that by schooling them in morals and what's right and wrong. (wasn't that the parents job?). So are we ready? I'm just a fool caught in the rat race of life (Nathan Struth) please help me solve world hunger, It's hard to do it alone.

Nov 16, 2006, 01:15 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Captain Chaos Shifting Paradigms Location: Flowery Branch, GA Posts: 3,102	I believe logic and sense will not lead one to dropping the concept of a creator - although it will lead one to dropping the current mainstream religions. Do all things with love.

Nov 16, 2006, 01:18 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	So very disturbing and frankly sickening. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Nov 16, 2006, 01:42 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	Well said, Tivo. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Nov 16, 2006, 02:30 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	People condemn themselves. God has done more than any fair-minded person would think required to try to save us from that but all most people want to do is spit in His face for it. You want conscience? Since when have you ever died for someone? Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Nov 16, 2006, 05:14 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,174	It already has been dropped by the majority in the UK. People only claim CofE so they can get a church wedding. Take a look at this 42% polled in the UK think faith is as evil as small pox. The majority in this country have a new deity to worship and it's name is Government. When tragedy comes the people offer up their liberties as a libation to Big Brother and his archishop the Rt.Hon. Tony Blair. Had to shove that in, sorry... Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Nov 16, 2006, 05:40 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Autolykos Logical Phallussy Location: In your internets. Posts: 2,991	Against my better judgement, perhaps, I am going to jump in here. Phoenix, why do you get so offended every time someone discusses alternatives to Christianity, or religion in general? - Rob "I'd rather be free and alive!" -- Ron Paul Religion isn't the greatest threat to mankind -- authoritarianism is. The Anarcheion Zeitgeist

Nov 16, 2006, 05:49 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Autolykos Logical Phallussy Location: In your internets. Posts: 2,991	I know this isn't quite on-topic, but... Captain, what would that punishment do for you? Nothing would be able to bring your kids back to life. - Rob "I'd rather be free and alive!" -- Ron Paul Religion isn't the greatest threat to mankind -- authoritarianism is. The Anarcheion Zeitgeist