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Cephus · Nov 23, 2006, 01:34 am

Quote:

Quote by: Heehoos

Religion (I prefer saying "Faith" actually rather than deal with the construct of organized religion) is not necessarily always about solutions. It's also a way to ask questions about the why of things. It is also about hope. It's not saying "I need a new car" and thinking that by believing in God it's going to magically appear.

But of course, you get a lot of theists who think praying to God about a new car is going to get them one. "God will provide" and all that. Of course, when God doesn't provide, you've got the handy "it's not God's will" card to play so you don't look stupid.

**Jack** · Nov 23, 2006, 02:34 am

Quote:

There are whole chapters of the Bible devoted to wisdom and reason.

Only insofar as the reality of god is assumed to be true. Christianity does not encourage questioning and doubt. You cannot examine a belief with an open mind if you are not allowed to question and doubt.

Inlineskater · Nov 23, 2006, 02:35 pm

I don't believe there is a god or higher power. I mean supposedly god is supposed to help people, but as an atheist I find I am just as lucky as the rest of them. And for people thinking they will go to heaven, they just did that because they (like many of us, not me) were afraid to die. So they made it up that they would go to heaven. Not a half-bad thing to beleive, but I prefer the cold hard to truth to a happy lie any day.

Captain Chaos · Nov 25, 2006, 11:03 am

Quote:

Quote by: Inlineskater

I don't believe there is a god or higher power. I mean supposedly god is supposed to help people, but as an atheist I find I am just as lucky as the rest of them. And for people thinking they will go to heaven, they just did that because they (like many of us, not me) were afraid to die. So they made it up that they would go to heaven. Not a half-bad thing to beleive, but I prefer the cold hard to truth to a happy lie any day.

But your belief is just that - a belief.

The fact that God, if he exists, does not intervene does not at all prove that God does not exist.

The cold hard truth is that you do not truly know, and neither does any of the rest of us.

Captain Chaos · Nov 25, 2006, 11:04 am

Quote:

Quote by: Cephus

But of course, you get a lot of theists who think praying to God about a new car is going to get them one. "God will provide" and all that. Of course, when God doesn't provide, you've got the handy "it's not God's will" card to play so you don't look stupid.

Anybody here recall when Evander Holyfield claimed that God told him he was going to win a boxing match (which he lost)?

Cephus · Nov 26, 2006, 02:57 am

Quote:

Quote by: Captain Chaos

Anybody here recall when Evander Holyfield claimed that God told him he was going to win a boxing match (which he lost)?

That kind of stuff happens all the time, unfortunately, but you don't see any of these holy rollers suddenly deciding that it's pointless to pray, they just make excuses for why God didn't come through.

Captain Chaos · Nov 27, 2006, 10:06 am

From an ethical, theological perspective, the idea of God (if he exists) intervening in boxing matches, or wars, or whatever, just does not make a lot of sense.

I mean, maybe some entities outside of our reality do intervene from time to time. I am open to the possibility, just not sure how we would establish proof. However, if God were to regularly take control of our lives, then we would not really be living our lives on our own, would we? For that matter, if God were to make himself apparent, and to make 'The Rules' plain and clear, then there would be no point to us working those things out for ourselves.

If lifetimes are going to be lived as independent entities with actual free will (meaning free from God's control), then it is necessary for God to stay in the background.

These kinds of concepts are too subtle for most holy rollers, in my experience.

Fonceai · Nov 27, 2006, 11:18 am

@Captain Chaos

The concept of a background God isn't subtle, it just disagrees with nearly every religion on the planet. Thus the majority of people on the planet don't like it very much.

Hell, some atheists don't like it either.

I think it takes a certain degree of maturity to consider that there is a God of some kind and he isn't meddling for his own reasons.

Captain Chaos · Nov 27, 2006, 12:40 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Fonceai

@Captain Chaos

The concept of a background God isn't subtle, it just disagrees with nearly every religion on the planet. Thus the majority of people on the planet don't like it very much.

Hell, some atheists don't like it either.

I think it takes a certain degree of maturity to consider that there is a God of some kind and he isn't meddling for his own reasons.

It makes so much sense though.

It is consistent with infinite emergence. It it consistent with apparent fine tuning. It is consistent with the evidence from NDEs. It is not inconsistent with anything we know from physics.

It is a best-fit explanation.

Sometimes, the best expression of love is to let your children live their own lives, painful times and all.

Fonceai · Nov 27, 2006, 02:09 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Captain Chaos

Sometimes, the best expression of love is to let your children live their own lives, painful times and all.

Spoken like a good parent.

The lessons your children learn the hard way are more effective than the same lesson you try to teach them the easy way.

The coincidence that God is called Father is never lost on me.

Heehoos · Nov 27, 2006, 02:36 pm

And maybe the biggest gift that we've been given, the biggest "intercession" on God's part, is the fact that we are here, breathing, thinking, able to love, able to see and understand beauty. Maybe God's intercession is already being lived out in the natural Way of things.

Has anybody here ever read the Tao te Ching? The very first paragraph goes like this (depending on the translation):

The Way that can be followed is not the eternal Way.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the origin of heaven and earth
While naming is the origin of the myriad things.

It is an interesting read and/or meditation. Or at least, it offers a different way of looking at things.

Fonceai · Nov 27, 2006, 02:42 pm

Sounds like Ch'an, or Kohn (sp)... a statement that has no logical answer but allows focus.

I actually have the Tao Te Ching in my bag right now, along with The Little Zen Companion. Good reading when I want to not think.

samsara15 · Nov 27, 2006, 02:53 pm

I can handle a God in the Hindu Brahman concept...one we're all part of, albeit a very small part of. Or that maybe matter and energy themselves have some sort of rudimentary spark of life in them. Or a Spinoza / Einstein type background God.

The idea of a God who cares about who wins wars or sports contests demeans the concept.

Nov 27, 2006, 10:06 am	#167 (permalink) (top)
Captain Chaos Shifting Paradigms Location: Flowery Branch, GA Posts: 3,102	From an ethical, theological perspective, the idea of God (if he exists) intervening in boxing matches, or wars, or whatever, just does not make a lot of sense. I mean, maybe some entities outside of our reality do intervene from time to time. I am open to the possibility, just not sure how we would establish proof. However, if God were to regularly take control of our lives, then we would not really be living our lives on our own, would we? For that matter, if God were to make himself apparent, and to make 'The Rules' plain and clear, then there would be no point to us working those things out for ourselves. If lifetimes are going to be lived as independent entities with actual free will (meaning free from God's control), then it is necessary for God to stay in the background. These kinds of concepts are too subtle for most holy rollers, in my experience. Do all things with love.

Nov 27, 2006, 02:36 pm	#171 (permalink) (top)
Heehoos Molten Ash Location: Pacific Northwest, USA Posts: 103	And maybe the biggest gift that we've been given, the biggest "intercession" on God's part, is the fact that we are here, breathing, thinking, able to love, able to see and understand beauty. Maybe God's intercession is already being lived out in the natural Way of things. Has anybody here ever read the Tao te Ching? The very first paragraph goes like this (depending on the translation): The Way that can be followed is not the eternal Way. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the origin of heaven and earth While naming is the origin of the myriad things. It is an interesting read and/or meditation. Or at least, it offers a different way of looking at things. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force… We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. - Max Planck, Father of Quantum Theory

Nov 27, 2006, 02:53 pm	#173 (permalink) (top)
samsara15 I'm the camel Location: Maryland Posts: 657	I can handle a God in the Hindu Brahman concept...one we're all part of, albeit a very small part of. Or that maybe matter and energy themselves have some sort of rudimentary spark of life in them. Or a Spinoza / Einstein type background God. The idea of a God who cares about who wins wars or sports contests demeans the concept. Economic Left/Right -8.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian –6.97

Nov 23, 2006, 02:35 pm	#163 (permalink) (top)
Inlineskater Molten Ash Posts: 28	I don't believe there is a god or higher power. I mean supposedly god is supposed to help people, but as an atheist I find I am just as lucky as the rest of them. And for people thinking they will go to heaven, they just did that because they (like many of us, not me) were afraid to die. So they made it up that they would go to heaven. Not a half-bad thing to beleive, but I prefer the cold hard to truth to a happy lie any day.

Nov 27, 2006, 11:18 am	#168 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	@Captain Chaos The concept of a background God isn't subtle, it just disagrees with nearly every religion on the planet. Thus the majority of people on the planet don't like it very much. Hell, some atheists don't like it either. I think it takes a certain degree of maturity to consider that there is a God of some kind and he isn't meddling for his own reasons.

Nov 27, 2006, 02:42 pm	#172 (permalink) (top)
Fonceai BANNED Location: New York Posts: 4,217	Sounds like Ch'an, or Kohn (sp)... a statement that has no logical answer but allows focus. I actually have the Tao Te Ching in my bag right now, along with The Little Zen Companion. Good reading when I want to not think.