Are we Ready To Drop God?

[luke virtual kh]

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Heehoos Yes. I don't think that a creator of a vast universe (and who knows what's on the "outside" of this universe" is going to care about one small handful of people against other handfulls of anciet people. As a Christian, I believe that Jesus taught us to do away with the ideas of who is and who is not entitled to God's love.

This would be a rejection of some OT teachings - meaning the OT was not divinely inspired.

Are you OK with that?

[Heehoos]

Quote by: luke virtual kh You seem still to think that it's a denial of so called humanity to not seek God. If you're willing to argue that, then I reply that historically the majority of mankind has lived in relative poverty and ask is it a denial of ones humanity to have material wealth? Or knowledge instead of ignorance? Longevity instead of a short life? God is dead. He froze to death.

Do not assume what I think. I never said it was a denial of humanity not to seek God. I did say that throughout history humanity has demonstrated a common interest in seeking the Divine and because there are still unanswered "why" questions, humanity (meaning many but not all) will continue to do so.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Captain Chaos This would be a rejection of some OT teachings - meaning the OT was not divinely inspired. Are you OK with that?

I believe that the Bible is inspired but not infallable. I also believe that because the Bible has inaccuracies and may not all be factual, it doesn't make many of the lessons untrue.

For example, take the story of how Jesus stopped people from stoning a known prostitute. He said 'let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.' and everybody walked away. Did this really happen? Who knows. Is it a good lesson? YES. Is it a truth for those who seek to be Christian? Yes.

I believe that the Old Testamant was a written history that connects humankind to God somehow and, linked to the New Testament, links Jesus to God.

I do not believe that it singles out a race of people as a chosen people.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Heehoos Einstein said, "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."

The same Einstein who spent the last half of his life trying to disprove his own work because it didn't agree with his views on God?

Religion makes people, even brilliant people, insane.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Whether or not there exists beings powerful enough to be called gods, it seems clear to me that humanity invented the various gods they worship.

Of course they did, without question. Primitive man saw lightning and didn't know what it was, so they invented a powerful god to explain it. They didn't like death so they used their pantheon of gods to explain what came after it. They wanted control over things they could not control, like the hunt, so they sacrificed things to their gods, hoping it would do some good.

We're not a lot better today. Many modern-day humans still claim invisible fantasy figures control their lives because it's a lot easier than actually taking responsibility for themselves.

[samsara15]

Religion made Newton insane as well as Einstein. Maybe it makes us all insane, geniuses and non-geniuses, including we non-believers. For my money, however, we'd be a lot better off if we found human solutions to our problems, and our cruelty and brutality to each other, rather than heavenly ones.

[Cephus]

Quote by: samsara15 Religion made Newton insane as well as Einstein. Maybe it makes us all insane, geniuses and non-geniuses, including we non-believers. For my money, however, we'd be a lot better off if we found human solutions to our problems, and our cruelty and brutality to each other, rather than heavenly ones.

Of course. What good does it ultimately do to invent imaginary solutions to real world problems? What good does it do to BS ourselves into thinking some magical, mystical being is going to take care of us when the reality is that we have to take care of ourselves? Religion does nothing more than give empty solutions to important problems and the problems don't go away because people want to pretend that they do.

The only way to really solve problems is to meet them head on and really deal with them. Religion stops people from doing that.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Cephus Of course. What good does it ultimately do to invent imaginary solutions to real world problems? What good does it do to BS ourselves into thinking some magical, mystical being is going to take care of us when the reality is that we have to take care of ourselves? Religion does nothing more than give empty solutions to important problems and the problems don't go away because people want to pretend that they do. The only way to really solve problems is to meet them head on and really deal with them. Religion stops people from doing that.

This is well said. This is why I feel that religion decreases people's capacity to reason well.

I believe that the evidence from NDEs is best explained by concepts that include life after death, reincarnation, and some other ideas that materialists would consider unacceptable.

However, either belief system leads one to conclude that we are supposed to solve our own problems, and listen to our own conscience - not follow the Bible to the letter.

Consider the life review, as is often experienced during NDEs. A materialist explanation would say that the guide during a life review is essentially the voice of your conscience. A non-materialist explanation would say that the guide is some spiritual entity. Either way, the guide apparently focuses on your actions and the consequences of your actions, not on your beliefs. So, whether or not there is an afterlife, your belief in it is not so important.

Consider the fact that God, if he exists, has not chosen to talk to anyone in a clear and indisputable fashion. The Bible is a book that reads like the rantings of ancient religious fanatics. If God really wanted to communicate with humanity through a book, it is reasonable to assume that the book would be believable to nearly everyone. A universe creator should be capable of good clear writing, and indisputable prophecy. Since none of the religious books meet that criteria, and since no other claims of communication from God are noteworthy, we can conclude that God (if he exists) is not choosing to take action that would convince us of his existence. Thus, believing in God must not be all that important. The only way this would make sense is if we are supposed to solve our own problems and choose our own directions in life. If God, if he exists, were to make himself apparent, then people would tend to follow that God, rather than follow their own pursuits.

So...

It seems clear to me that religion serves to impede our true purpose. Given the absense of indisputable divine guidance, it must be the case that we are supposed to find our own path through life, and solve our own problems. As Cephus explained previously, religion inhibits the process of choosing our path and solving our own problems.

Thus:
1) If God does not exist, then religion is clearly a lie.
2) If God exists, religion as we know it is contrary to God's will.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Cephus Of course. What good does it ultimately do to invent imaginary solutions to real world problems? What good does it do to BS ourselves into thinking some magical, mystical being is going to take care of us when the reality is that we have to take care of ourselves? Religion does nothing more than give empty solutions to important problems and the problems don't go away because people want to pretend that they do. The only way to really solve problems is to meet them head on and really deal with them. Religion stops people from doing that.

Religion (I prefer saying "Faith" actually rather than deal with the construct of organized religion) is not necessarily always about solutions. It's also a way to ask questions about the why of things. It is also about hope. It's not saying "I need a new car" and thinking that by believing in God it's going to magically appear.

Rather, it's about saying, "Would a new car make me truly, soulfully happy?" It's about getting down to the core of one's being/existance and how it interacts with all of creation. It's also about realizing that there's more than "me" in the world -- it's about putting the ego in its place and realizing that being happy isn't focusing on "me".

It's also realizing that problems aren't always what they seem to be. Having faith means believing in the things we cannot know, that we cannot see. If we have a problem we may think a certain solution will fix the situation when in reality, there may be a better solution that will be revealed in the future if we have faith.

Life isn't made up of absolutes and "knowns". And so we sometimes need faith that we will make it through the unknowns even if we don't have control of everything.

[luke virtual kh]

Quote by: Heehoos Religion (I prefer saying "Faith" actually rather than deal with the construct of organized religion) is not necessarily always about solutions. It's also a way to ask questions about the why of things. It is also about hope. It's not saying "I need a new car" and thinking that by believing in God it's going to magically appear. Rather, it's about saying, "Would a new car make me truly, soulfully happy?" It's about getting down to the core of one's being/existance and how it interacts with all of creation. It's also about realizing that there's more than "me" in the world -- it's about putting the ego in its place and realizing that being happy isn't focusing on "me". It's also realizing that problems aren't always what they seem to be. Having faith means believing in the things we cannot know, that we cannot see. If we have a problem we may think a certain solution will fix the situation when in reality, there may be a better solution that will be revealed in the future if we have faith. Life isn't made up of absolutes and "knowns". And so we sometimes need faith that we will make it through the unknowns even if we don't have control of everything.

A beautifully subtle influence...

Not everyone is inclined to abandon the ego etc though, and for some it would be unhelpful.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Captain Chaos This is well said. This is why I feel that religion decreases people's capacity to reason well.

I highly disagree. I believe that it is humanity's USE of religion to control others that hurts humanity's capacity to reason. People start believing what they're told rather than thinking for themselves. But you don't need religion to do that. You only need media and pop culture now.

Quote by: Captain Chaos Consider the fact that God, if he exists, has not chosen to talk to anyone in a clear and indisputable fashion. The Bible is a book that reads like the rantings of ancient religious fanatics. If God really wanted to communicate with humanity through a book, it is reasonable to assume that the book would be believable to nearly everyone. A universe creator should be capable of good clear writing, and indisputable prophecy. Since none of the religious books meet that criteria, and since no other claims of communication from God are noteworthy, we can conclude that God (if he exists) is not choosing to take action that would convince us of his existence. Thus, believing in God must not be all that important. The only way this would make sense is if we are supposed to solve our own problems and choose our own directions in life. If God, if he exists, were to make himself apparent, then people would tend to follow that God, rather than follow their own pursuits.

Now the following is going to come with someone who believes that it is not correct to read the Bible as a book of facts. What many fail to do is realize who wrote the Bible, why they wrote it, to whom they were writing, etc. The Bible is not a book -- it is a library of many books in one volume. It was written at different times by different people for different reasons. There is poetry, historical accounts by scribes (the scribes of the *winners* of every situation, really), letters, and more.

If we look back into history, how did ancient people write? They wrote in ways that first of all embellished the ruling monarch or their victories. They wrote in parables. They all talked about their gods as if their god was one of many but of course was the stronger among all other gods.

So the Hebrew people also wrote.

Another thing that we must remember is the fundamental idea (by people of faith) is that we are all created beings with complete Free Will. The idea is that people can be very faithful and can be inspired by God but ultimately, God didn't knock someone on the head and take over their body to begin writing scripture. They were still human beings with their own lives, intentions and beliefs.

In essence, they were doing the best they knew how, but were still beautifully, fallably human.

Think of it this way: A parent raises a child. They do their best to teach them how to live a good life but once the child leaves the house, the parent really doesn't have any say in the child's life. The child must make their own decisions, be their own person, reap their own benefits and reprocussions. If the parent tries to intervene, either the child will rebel more or the parent will be considered overbearing. But because the parent does not interfere, it doesn't mean they don't love the child.

It is similar with God. God cannot give us free will and then take it back whenever we make mistakes. As humanity, we make our own decisions, reap our own benefits and reprocussions. If God were to truly intervene, we would be puppets and/or we would live our lives in ultimate fear. It can be no other way.

So that's my perception of things anyway. Others may see them very differently.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: luke virtual kh A beautifully subtle influence... Not everyone is inclined to abandon the ego etc though, and for some it would be unhelpful.

No, not abandoning the ego. One must have balance. It's about not letting the ego get out of hand.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Heehoos I highly disagree. I believe that it is humanity's USE of religion to control others that hurts humanity's capacity to reason. People start believing what they're told rather than thinking for themselves. But you don't need religion to do that. You only need media and pop culture now.

Whether or not pop culture is guilty of mind numbing, that does not change the fact that religion also teaches people to take things on faith, rather than decide your own belief. In Christian belief, you face eternal torture for deciding for yourself, if you happen to decide in the wrong direction. This is a mind numbing influence.

It is similar with God. God cannot give us free will and then take it back whenever we make mistakes.

I agree. Whether or not God exists, he isn't making himself apparent. Thus, we are left with choosing our own destiny. Surely, despite all the suffering that results from it, this is the best way?

[samsara15]

If there is a God, like some people already have said, He should have made His existence a lot more evident than it is, or appears to be to me. God seems to me to just be one more unnecessary hypthosis. I also don't see much evidence that the universe cares about us or that we are a unique species of animal. One small planet around a small sun in an average galaxy, out of tens of trillions of galaxies.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Whether or not pop culture is guilty of mind numbing, that does not change the fact that religion also teaches people to take things on faith, rather than decide your own belief. In Christian belief, you face eternal torture for deciding for yourself, if you happen to decide in the wrong direction. This is a mind numbing influence.

The fundamental principals of Christianity do not promote mind-numbing obedience. There are whole chapters of the Bible devoted to wisdom and reason.

Proverbs 3:13-18, "Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.

But you are right, many groups of people have perverted faith to control other people. There have been revolutions in Christianity that promoted free-thinking and movement away from establishment. One of those movements helped lead the pilgrims to the Americas, by the way.

Quote by: Captain Chaos I agree. Whether or not God exists, he isn't making himself apparent. Thus, we are left with choosing our own destiny. Surely, despite all the suffering that results from it, this is the best way?

That depends. Would you rather be controlled? If you made a mistake, would you prefer swift and immediate punishment? Remember that all actions in existance affect all other actions. Meaning that if one person is hit by a bus, perhaps two people in the emergency situation meet that later fall in love, get married and give birth to one who would later grow up to cure a major disease? Or perhaps a person who is dying of AIDS writes a poem that moves the hearts of thousands to good works.

What would our universe look like if everything that was done was "fixed" if it was done incorrectly?

[Heehoos]

Quote by: samsara15 If there is a God, like some people already have said, He should have made His existence a lot more evident than it is, or appears to be to me. God seems to me to just be one more unnecessary hypthosis. I also don't see much evidence that the universe cares about us or that we are a unique species of animal. One small planet around a small sun in an average galaxy, out of tens of trillions of galaxies.

You don't think that the fact that this tiny planet around a sun in an average galaxy has sapient life on it? By appearances -- that is, what we know about our galaxy and others -- we have not yet found another planet with sapient life (though we know so little so far). Life that is aware is incredibly special.

The human body alone (let alone all other animals) is incredibly complex. From particles to atoms to molecules to DNA to organelles to cells to cell systems to organs to organ systems to organism...

I read somewhere that it is as likely for an explosion of particles to end up as a complex organism as it is likely for an explosion of letters to end up as a dictionary. Not that I am disputing the Big Bang theory but it's something to think about.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Heehoos The fundamental principals of Christianity do not promote mind-numbing obedience. There are whole chapters of the Bible devoted to wisdom and reason.

Is it OK, within Christian belief, to reach the conclusion that Christianity is not the one true religion? If your reason guides you away from Christianity, is that acceptable within Christian belief?

What would our universe look like if everything that was done was "fixed" if it was done incorrectly?

I was saying that surely it is better if fate is not controlled.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: samsara15 If there is a God, like some people already have said, He should have made His existence a lot more evident than it is, or appears to be to me. God seems to me to just be one more unnecessary hypthosis. I also don't see much evidence that the universe cares about us or that we are a unique species of animal. One small planet around a small sun in an average galaxy, out of tens of trillions of galaxies.

Why should he have done so?

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Is it OK, within Christian belief, to reach the conclusion that Christianity is not the one true religion? If your reason guides you away from Christianity, is that acceptable within Christian belief?

Well then I would say that in that case, the person would no longer be Christian, eh? At least, if they decided they were not. It's difficult to know how to define a Christian these days. I identify myself as Christian because it is my tradition of faith. It's the window through which I see the world. And yet, I do not agree with every other Christian. So who is more Christian? And who decides? I'd say that's between the person and God.

I also don't necessarily believe that Christianity is the "one true" religion. It certainly is for me. But I think God may also give credit to those who seek. If a person seeks relationship with the Creator (God, however you define that) through Buddhism, or through Taoism or Islam or whatever, I think God appreciates that they are seeking. I also don't think I know all the rules because ... well, I don't know everything. But I assume that there is a being who does.