Are we Ready To Drop God?

[Zhavric]

There was a great article in salon a few months back (I think I posted it here...) about how a lot of Christians learn about god at the same time they learn about Santa. Though their opinion of Santa matures from "Man at the north pole" to concept of generosity at holiday time, their opinion of god never makes this metamorphosis. God is still the big man in the sky... which is a shame. Many theists are too caught up in literal interpretations of their early writings.

[Captain Chaos]

My 4-year-old seems to think it would not be appropriate for us to lay a trap for Santa outside of the fireplace!

[Nathan Struth]

CoffeSaint I don't think we're ready yet, you're assuming everyoen would think about things in a logical and provable manner. I don't think that's the nature of people.

People need that allmighty punisher to make them stop committing crimes. They need imaginary threats that they believe. If they don't ahve this (the majority of people) then the world may get worse dropping god.

Also I can vouch for an adults personal experience about people. On the Hudson line of the train. The person who had this experience is a catholic adult in my Boy Scout troop. He told me everyone was about to get off and a man just got really pale, froze and fell on the floor. No one helped him. Everyone ran away from the guy that looked like he died. But only my scout leader gave him CPR while everyone else ran away.

So do you like human nature still? Do you still think we're ready to drop a divine creator and an explanation for everything? I still hold no

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Zhavric There was a great article in salon a few months back (I think I posted it here...) about how a lot of Christians learn about god at the same time they learn about Santa. Though their opinion of Santa matures from "Man at the north pole" to concept of generosity at holiday time, their opinion of god never makes this metamorphosis. God is still the big man in the sky... which is a shame. Many theists are too caught up in literal interpretations of their early writings.

I have to disagree with you. It is all a personal journey and not all journeys are the same. I came from the "big man in the sky" type of spirituality and have morphed into a more universal, almost Taoist idea of God. I don't believe God has gender or physical form as we know it. God is in all of us, and in all things. God is the seed of life and the Way of all things.

To answer others, I think that if the concept of a Higher Power was removed from my concept of life, I would feel quite a loss. Not a loss of a habit or a tradition, but a loss of hope.

Kierkegaard said that reason has no place in faith. Faith cannot be proved by reason, it is separate. The argument of faith and reason will never be solved. It must be approached by the individual and sought out (or not).

[Heehoos]

Oh and Nathan your avatar reminded me of something Ghandi said. The story goes like this:

Once when the missionary E. Stanley Jones met with Ghandi he asked him, "Mr. Ghandi, though you quote the words of Christ often, why is that you appear to so adamantly reject becoming his follower?"

Ghandi replied, "Oh, I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Apparently Ghandi's rejection of Christianity grew out of an incident that happened when he was a young man practising law in South Africa. He had become attracted to the Christian faith, had studied the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, and was seriously exploring becoming a Christian. And so he decided to attend a church service. As he came up the steps of the large church where he intended to go, a white South African elder of the church barred his way at the door. "Where do you think you're going, kaffir?" the man asked Ghandi in a belligerent tone of voice.

Ghandi replied, "I'd like to attend worship here."

The church elder snarled at him, "There's no room for kaffirs in this church. Get out of here or I'll have my assistants throw you down the steps."

From that moment, Ghandi said, he decided to adopt what good he found in Christianity, but would never again consider becoming a Christian if it meant being part of the church."


I personally couldn't blame him! I have felt similarly at times in my life. Again, it is not the human parts of religion that attract me to God but the faith in something bigger than us all. It's the search for goodness, love, joy, faithfulness, and all those things that I know exist in each one of us and through all humanity. To me, that is God. And I think Ghandi saw that, too.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: phoenix_fire That's not exactly it. I get offended when someone says something against God. I care deeply about Him.

Assuming, for the moment, that He exists, do you think that God really needs your help to defend Himself?

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Captain Chaos It would teach that person to truly feel and understand the harm that he has caused, so that in the future he would be less inclined to do it.

Killing him wouldn't teach him anything, would it? Any lessons he learned in dying would be inapplicable once he's dead.

Besides, there is reason to believe that serial killers (among others) apply different standards to themselves than they do to other people. They consider themselves to somehow be "special"; thus, they are not subject to the "normal" rules which govern the rest of us.

- Rob

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Autolycos Killing him wouldn't teach him anything, would it? Any lessons he learned in dying would be inapplicable once he's dead.

Not by my belief system.

Regardless, killing him does eliminate him as a threat to others, as does life imprisonment.

Besides, there is reason to believe that serial killers (among others) apply different standards to themselves than they do to other people. They consider themselves to somehow be "special"; thus, they are not subject to the "normal" rules which govern the rest of us.

If they cannot be reformed, they should be made unable to harm others, in some fashion. We are talking about afterlife punishments here, though. The rules of psychology in such a setting may be different - we could not know.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Autolykos Assuming, for the moment, that He exists, do you think that God really needs your help to defend Himself? - Rob

I have already replied to a statement very similar to this. I don't think He needs me to defend Him, but then again, I defend people on a daily basis that are very capable of taking care of themselves. I don't do it because I think they are weak or need me to protect them, but because I love them and care deeply for them. Their names will not be drug through the dirt in my presence. I am a fiercely loyal type of person. You will not insult my friends.

[Autolykos]

A person cannot insult anyone else. He can only allow himself to feel insulted by what someone else says. So maybe you should ask yourself whether God really feels insulted by atheist proclamations?

- Rob

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Autolykos A person cannot insult anyone else. He can only allow himself to feel insulted by what someone else says. So maybe you should ask yourself whether God really feels insulted by atheist proclamations? - Rob

That's your opinion and you can't expect me to respond using it as a granted.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Captain Chaos I am happy to argue NDEs with you, in an NDE thread.

Then start a threat on that topic if you wish.

My point here, though, was not about the validity of NDEs. I am pointing out that we are wired for God, and other spiritual experiences. This does not mean that such experiences are real, just that our brain has a natural capacity for them.

No, you are STATING YOUR OPINION that we are wired for God, you have yet to provide a shred of objective evidence to that effect. Please learn to tell the difference.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Autolykos A person cannot insult anyone else. He can only allow himself to feel insulted by what someone else says. So maybe you should ask yourself whether God really feels insulted by atheist proclamations? - Rob

I doubt that God feels insulted by athiest proclaimations. I'm not sure that God feels in the way that we feel, as God is not bound by human chemistry. Humankind likes to infer a lot of human instincts to the concept of God. I do believe in God but have no ability to fathom what God might be like.

It is definitely the believer who is insulted by those telling them that they are stupid for believing what they believe. Just as an athiest may feel insulted by a Christian telling them that they will go to hell for their lack of belief, a Christian will feel insulted by a non-believer telling them that their belief is wasted.

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Cephus No, you are STATING YOUR OPINION that we are wired for God, you have yet to provide a shred of objective evidence to that effect. Please learn to tell the difference.

Human history would be the evidence. Since the dawn of humankind -- since our recognition of death, probably -- humankind has sought a god figure. It was not in response to polics or power, but in response to unknown.

There will always be unknown. Humankind will never reach the limits of understanding. Therefore, humankind will always seek God.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: phoenix_fire That's your opinion and you can't expect me to respond using it as a granted.

It's not opinion; it's fact.

- Rob

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Cephus Then start a threat on that topic if you wish. No, you are STATING YOUR OPINION that we are wired for God, you have yet to provide a shred of objective evidence to that effect. Please learn to tell the difference.

Please learn not to come across like a condescending jerk.

I have started multiple threads on NDEs in the past. It always breaks down to unprovable judgement calls.


Here are some links for you:

The GOD Part Of The Brain - Matthew Alper
God Part of the Brain
Neurotheology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Entrez PubMed
Entrez PubMed
Entrez PubMed

Given the naturalistic explanations for NDEs that you support, I am surprised you disagree with the claim that the brain has physical components capable of generating mystical experiences.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Autolykos It's not opinion; it's fact.

It is philosophical word-bending. Nothing more.

[Autolykos]

Good Lord. How in the world is it "philosophical word-bending"?

Either you accept that people control their own emotional responses (including feeling insulted) or you don't. It's still fact, though.

- Rob

[Captain Chaos]

I think most people do not have conscious control over their emotional reactions.

For example, if someone killed my wife, I would be very distraught. No way I could control that feeling.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: Captain Chaos For example, if someone killed my wife, I would be very distraught. No way I could control that feeling.

But could you then conclude that the killer "made you feel bad"? Of course not.