Are we Ready To Drop God?

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: phoenix_fire That is cold. And He is not a deity of torture.

He created a system whereby the majority of his creations are sentenced to an eternity of torture.

Yes, the Christian god is a deity of torture. You choose not to see it that way, but that is just the typical self delusion needed to remain loyal to such evil.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Isherwood Yes, I do. But in the case of dreams, NDEs and the rest, I've never heard of anyone imagining anything that wasn't already known to them. Our brains are marvelous mechanisms, able to take all the input they receive every day and recombine it into fantastic dreams and imaginings. I don't see anything divine about it, nor do I perceive any divinity about any aspect of life.

Under the influence of intense hallucinogens, people have reported seeing colors that don't exist.

[Jack]

Yes, the word divine connotes a religious implication to me;

# emanating from God; "divine judgment"; "divine guidance"; "everything is black1 or white...satanic or godly"-Saturday Review # providential: resulting from divine providence; "providential care"; "a providential visitation" # being or having the nature of a god; "the custom of killing the divine king upon any serious failure of his...powers"-J.G.Frazier; "the divine will"; "the divine capacity for love"; "'Tis wise to learn; 'tis God-like to create"-J.G.Saxe # devoted to or in the service or worship of a deity; "divine worship"; "divine liturgy" # perceive intuitively or through some inexplicable perceptive powers # Godhead: terms referring to the Judeo-Christian God # appropriate to or befitting a god; "the divine strength of Achilles"; "a man of godlike sagacity"; "man must play God for he has acquired certain godlike powers"-R.H.Roveref # cleric: a clergyman or other person in religious orders # being of such surpassing excellence as to suggest inspiration by the gods; "her pies were simply divine"; "the divine Shakespeare"; "an elysian meal"; "an inspired performance" # search by divining, as if with a rod; "He claimed he could divine underground water"

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Quote by: Isherwood # being of such surpassing excellence as to suggest inspiration by the gods; "her pies were simply divine"; "the divine Shakespeare"; "an elysian meal"; "an inspired performance"

I think this is the one closest to how I see it. It probably wasn't inspired by god or by gods, but there is not always an alternative explanation. Which is why I think we're not supposed to fully drop the God idea, just radically redefine it, which would probably have to involve re-naming it as well.

[Chimowowo]

Quote by: phoenix_fire I know a lot of atheists that despise God. They think that if He really exists, He is cruel and unjust and heartless, and choose to pretend He's not there rather then do Him the favor of acknowledging Him. Sure they can present all sorts of facts and explanations that they think might in some way disindicate His existence. But in truth, they simply can't accept that reality could be ruled by Someone they find to be so evil. I don't think He's evil. I think He is good and pure and just and loving. I am a Christian because I know God and I love Him enough to give up everything for Him. I seek His presence and His face. I am not a Christian just to avoid fire and brimstone. I am a Christian to avoid ever having to be apart from God. Since I consider the latter to be the true definition and horror of Hell, then I suppose your statement might be considered correct.

You said it yourself that they find God to be cruel and unjust if he exists. But they don't believe he exists. And as such it's hard to despise something you believe doesn't exist. Do you despise Darth Vader for being evil? How bout dragons?

I am of their same opinion. If God really exists, he is cruel, unjust, and did a horrible job with the universe. However I don't despise him, because he doesn't exist. If he did I would though. Now for simplicity reasons when speaking to atheists, a lot won't make that distinction, unless you actually ask them about it. Even then there are exceptions.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Mr. Blue Sky you would do well to read your own signature, phoenix

My sig indicates nothing of the kind.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Quote by: phoenix_fire My sig indicates nothing of the kind.

With the fire!!

[Athena]

No one responded to the idea that we can accept there is a God, but none of the holy books are a good explanation of God. If we stop arguing about if there is or is not a God, we can move on to a socially signicant discussion about dropping religion as the authority on God and morals.

Why do we need a religiously defined God? Why does anyone need religion? What can religion do for civilization that reasoning can not?

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Quote by: Athena Why do we need a religiously defined God? Why does anyone need religion? What can religion do for civilization that reasoning can not?

The only thing religion can do for civilization is give us a historical perspective as to how humans used to reason

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Chimowowo You said it yourself that they find God to be cruel and unjust if he exists. But they don't believe he exists. And as such it's hard to despise something you believe doesn't exist. Do you despise Darth Vader for being evil? How bout dragons? I am of their same opinion. If God really exists, he is cruel, unjust, and did a horrible job with the universe. However I don't despise him, because he doesn't exist. If he did I would though. Now for simplicity reasons when speaking to atheists, a lot won't make that distinction, unless you actually ask them about it. Even then there are exceptions.

Quote by: phoenix_fire I know a lot of atheists that despise God. They think that if He really exists, He is cruel and unjust and heartless, and choose to pretend He's not there rather then do Him the favor of acknowledging Him. Sure they can present all sorts of facts and explanations that they think might in some way disindicate His existence. But in truth, they simply can't accept that reality could be ruled by Someone they find to be so evil.

Actually, Chimowowo, I have to back Phoenix up on this: I'm an atheist, and I despise god. I find it quite possible to hate something I don't believe in, though it certainly is not my most rational philosophical position. Phoenix, you're both right and wrong here; I can't accept that I could be ruled by someone I find so evil, but I also see no evidence that he exists -- and so I'm quite happily atheist. I would be very disappointed if I saw what I would consider proof of god, but I wouldn't go on denying his existence any more than I deny that Bush is president. Perhaps my dislike of god keeps me from recognizing proof of him as such, but I'm willing to live with that.

[Athena]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint Actually, Chimowowo, I have to back Phoenix up on this: I'm an atheist, and I despise god. I find it quite possible to hate something I don't believe in, though it certainly is not my most rational philosophical position. Phoenix, you're both right and wrong here; I can't accept that I could be ruled by someone I find so evil, but I also see no evidence that he exists -- and so I'm quite happily atheist. I would be very disappointed if I saw what I would consider proof of god, but I wouldn't go on denying his existence any more than I deny that Bush is president. Perhaps my dislike of god keeps me from recognizing proof of him as such, but I'm willing to live with that.

And whose definition of God are using? You write as though there were only one definition of God. The God of Abraham is a mythical supernatural being, with Zues like qualities. But this is not the only way of understanding God.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Mr. Blue Sky With the fire!!

It's a pun on my screen name. I swear. No one ever gets that.

The fire in both cases is a metaphor for spiritual intensity. The first case is demonstrating the fervor for which the Spirit of God longs for His people to be truly His. The second refers to the coming of the Holy Spirit and how He will make people's hearts consumed with God.

No torture. Far from it.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Captain Chaos If materialism is correct, then we are wired to have NDEs and OBEs and peak experiences. These things happen accross all cultures, with a great deal of similiarity between them.

NDEs are very easily explained, in fact we're able to replicate them in the lab under controlled conditions. They're biological in nature, not spiritual.

Try again.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Athena And whose definition of God are using? You write as though there were only one definition of God. The God of Abraham is a mythical supernatural being, with Zues like qualities. But this is not the only way of understanding God.

The one that offends me is the god of Abraham. I'm indifferent to any other god, as Chimowowo was describing; I just don't believe in them. But that means I'm perfectly willing to move past the argument over whether god exists, and move on to a discussion of morals and values.

[Amuse]

Quote by: Captain Chaos It would teach that person to truly feel and understand the harm that he has caused, so that in the future he would be less inclined to do it.

This is the problem with punishment. Pain and suffering doesn't propogate compassion. Incarceration doesn't rehabilitate offenders, education/ enlightenment does.

[Athena]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint The one that offends me is the god of Abraham. I'm indifferent to any other god, as Chimowowo was describing; I just don't believe in them. But that means I'm perfectly willing to move past the argument over whether god exists, and move on to a discussion of morals and values.

Thank you for acknowledging other concepts of God exist, and I think a few of us are ready to drop the God issue and move to discussion of morals and values. A poll might help us determine how many are ready to drop religion and get on with the big questions that really matter.

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Quote by: Athena Thank you for acknowledging other concepts of God exist, and I think a few of us are ready to drop the God issue and move to discussion of morals and values. A poll might help us determine how many are ready to drop religion and get on with the big questions that really matter.

So true. The issue isn't the nature of God or whether or not he exists. Is he real? is he not? either way he isn't helping. And that leaves us to solve our own problems which interpretations of ambiguous religious texts are only complicating.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Cephus NDEs are very easily explained, in fact we're able to replicate them in the lab under controlled conditions. They're biological in nature, not spiritual. Try again.

I am happy to argue NDEs with you, in an NDE thread.

My point here, though, was not about the validity of NDEs. I am pointing out that we are wired for God, and other spiritual experiences. This does not mean that such experiences are real, just that our brain has a natural capacity for them.

I was making that point as a partial explanation for the rise of religions, as explanations for these events.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Amuse This is the problem with punishment. Pain and suffering doesn't propogate compassion. Incarceration doesn't rehabilitate offenders, education/ enlightenment does.

I believe that, at least sometimes, you will gain compassion by experiencing the pain you have caused others, from their point of view. One component of the NDE that sometimes occurs is the live review. One frequent component of the life review is experiencing the pain you caused others, from their perspective. People who experience this describe the incredible guilt they feel from it, and a desire to make good on what they have done. A very educating and enlightening experience.

[Athena]

Quote by: Captain Chaos I am happy to argue NDEs with you, in an NDE thread. My point here, though, was not about the validity of NDEs. I am pointing out that we are wired for God, and other spiritual experiences. This does not mean that such experiences are real, just that our brain has a natural capacity for them. I was making that point as a partial explanation for the rise of religions, as explanations for these events.

Another way to say this is, all the virtues are within us. A Hindu explanation of this, is we are perfect beings, all sparks of God consciousness, but are deluding into believing differently. Where is Kuldeep? I am may not be expressing this concept correctly, but I heard we are as dirty lanterns, and need to clean off the soot to realize our true selves. Christian children hold up a figure and sing, "This little light is going to shine". There is a lot of religious agreement about our nature.

In AA if people don't have a religious belief, they can use the term "higher power" and it works just fine. I Ching advises seeking a superior man, someone with great wisdom, as opposed to church authority with religious dogma. And China has Confusius who helped people understand their moral responsibility to others several hundred years before Jesus. I think a concept of God/spiritual reality is important to us, but we should not attempt to define God and our relationship with God, as the bible does. This God thing is beyond our comprehension, and may be no more than a placebo, but it works.

However, a God who has favorites, and speaks to only a few people, and punishes or rewards depending on how well we please him, and can go against the laws the nature, does not work! A jealous and revengeful God who can violate the laws of nature is, a pagan God. We really do need to drop these self serving, pagan explanations of God.