Are we Ready To Drop God?

[Captain Chaos]

Another perspective on this, Nathan...

We appear to be wired for God. That is, whether or not there is a creator or a spirit realm, we appear to be neurologically predisposed to sense those things.

[Jack]

We appear to be wired for God

I don't know that I'd put it exactly that way. I prefer to think that as humans we are incredibly inquisitive and imaginative, while at the same time we don't deal with unknowns very well. We want to have answers. So if we ask questions to which there are no apparent answers, we make them up. Supernatural answers are preferred since it's so hard to disprove them, thus they're safe from further inquiry.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Actually, I rather took the Matrix to be more of a Christian allegory. (You're thinking: I bet you did).

Being an atheist in 2006 is a lot like being Morpheous from The Matrix before he found Neo.

Please read more carefully.

[Zhavric]

Humanity needs hope. We need to know that what we do has a purpose of some kind. We need to believe in the happy ending. I truly believe we would be doomed otherwise. We are not robots. We have emotions. We desire and need. We require more than just logic and reason as a motivation to go from one day to the next.

I couldn't agree more. It's those hopes and fears that religion preys upon.

[Heehoos]

That is subjective, Zhavric. And I suppose faith and religion are. Humanity is fallable, yes. Humanity can take something pure and wonderful and pervert it for material gains and that has absolutely been done with religion.

But faith is a precious thing to those who hold it dear. I cannot expect you (or anybody else) to understand or believe the personal experience of another. But I personally have felt (mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually) the work and presence of God. There have been undeniable moments in my life. I'm not talking about a lucky moment, or a chemical imbalance. I'm talking about a deep, root of my being kind of experience.

But that is what faith is about. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The evidence of things not seen. Faith in itself requires a personal seeking. That goes for all religions or faiths. One must come to the point in one's life where they realize that life is more than the tangiable. That LIFE is more than just chemistry.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Isherwood I don't know that I'd put it exactly that way. I prefer to think that as humans we are incredibly inquisitive and imaginative, while at the same time we don't deal with unknowns very well. We want to have answers. So if we ask questions to which there are no apparent answers, we make them up. Supernatural answers are preferred since it's so hard to disprove them, thus they're safe from further inquiry.

It is not as simple as that. We have the capacity to sense the divine presence (whether or not exists). We have NDEs and OBEs. We have peak experiences.

These things go beyond merely imagining an answer to unknowns.

I have read articles on this before, that explain it well. I will try to find some. This is not a theistic concept. In fact, it tends to be supported by atheists. I feel it does not lend weight to either side, but it does explain how religious belief arises.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Heehoos That is subjective, Zhavric. And I suppose faith and religion are. Humanity is fallable, yes. Humanity can take something pure and wonderful and pervert it for material gains and that has absolutely been done with religion. But faith is a precious thing to those who hold it dear. I cannot expect you (or anybody else) to understand or believe the personal experience of another. But I personally have felt (mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually) the work and presence of God. There have been undeniable moments in my life. I'm not talking about a lucky moment, or a chemical imbalance. I'm talking about a deep, root of my being kind of experience. But that is what faith is about. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The evidence of things not seen. Faith in itself requires a personal seeking. That goes for all religions or faiths. One must come to the point in one's life where they realize that life is more than the tangiable. That LIFE is more than just chemistry.

All modern day religions do is take credit for human emotions and instincts. "Do you feel good right now? That's JESUS!" Hear that enough times with enough memetic appeal and you'll start to believe it.

We do need hope and faith. What we don't need are religions convincing us our natural feelings are the works of bronze-age myths.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Zhavric All modern day religions do is take credit for human emotions and instincts. "Do you feel good right now? That's JESUS!" Hear that enough times with enough memetic appeal and you'll start to believe it. We do need hope and faith. What we don't need are religions convincing us our natural feelings are the works of bronze-age myths.

And taking our money for the privilege of buying into such scams!

[Heehoos]

We do need hope and faith. What we don't need are religions convincing us our natural feelings are the works of bronze-age myths.

Faith isn't about history. It's about the present. Jesus (or the story of Jesus, whatever you prefer) is an example of a life lived in faith. It is a life that teaches love, forgiveness, gentleness, etc., even pacifism in a way that outshined Ghandi.

It is my interpretation of Christianity that in the present, we are called to live the same type of life. In the present, here and now, we are called to live lovingly with forgiveness, gentleness, kindness, honesty and peacefulness. Strangely enough, it teaches against hypocracy in the Bible. It is too bad there is so much of it. Again, that is human fallability and you don't need religion to be an example of that.

And taking our money for the privilege of buying into such scams!

Again, it is agreed that human beings, hungry for power, have used religion in a way to feed their own desires. But again, you don't need religion for that. A person hungry for power can use many other weaknesses such as racism. Or Amway! It is humanity, not faith itself, that is at fault.

Regarding the money thing, it used to be that people contributed money (or crops or whatever) to their church as part of their regular budget. It was a community investment, sort of like taxes. In order to receive the benefit of the church (which played a larger role in daily life a few centuries ago), you contributed toward its existance.

Regular giving toward an institution of faith is not a scam. I am a member of a very liberal church. Giving to our church pays for our building, electricity, gas, maintenance, service equipment, a couple of full-time staff and one or two part-time staffers. None of it is profit toward anybody's pocket -- we barely make enough income to pay the bills that we have. But those of us who contribute do so so that others will have a place to come when they need a place.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Zhavric Please read more carefully.

That alters the matter not one iota. Is that all you can say?

[Mr. Blue Sky]

Quote by: Nathan Struth Hello, I'm an aethist and I was wondering what this world would be without the idae of god but keeping the same morals that judaism and Christianity preach. Does anyone think we're ready to drop this allmighty power from crushing us? I say we aren't ready. I dont' think the majority would view things through a lense of logic and sense. But we could always fix that by schooling them in morals and what's right and wrong. (wasn't that the parents job?). So are we ready?

It's nice to recognize that morals are still valuable even if the absurd metaphysical myths behind them are wrong.
Many people aren't ready yet, as phoenixfire shows, however I do not think the idea of God will be dropped completely, rather it wil be redefined. White beard god with little Jesus in his right hand and his omnipresent left hand that somehow meddled with earth's affairs is pretty ridiculous, and while it cannot technically be disproved it is much more likely that this is an ancient personification of an idea that has carried over with all the other beliefs. God and gods were the guide to truth for ancient peoples. Many have come to realize the metaphysics of these gods or God are improbable, however that is no reason to throw out realizations humans have reached while striving for truth.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Heehoos Faith isn't about history. It's about the present. Jesus (or the story of Jesus, whatever you prefer) is an example of a life lived in faith. It is a life that teaches love, forgiveness, gentleness, etc., even pacifism in a way that outshined Ghandi. It is my interpretation of Christianity that in the present, we are called to live the same type of life. In the present, here and now, we are called to live lovingly with forgiveness, gentleness, kindness, honesty and peacefulness. Strangely enough, it teaches against hypocracy in the Bible. It is too bad there is so much of it. Again, that is human fallability and you don't need religion to be an example of that. Again, it is agreed that human beings, hungry for power, have used religion in a way to feed their own desires. But again, you don't need religion for that. A person hungry for power can use many other weaknesses such as racism. Or Amway! It is humanity, not faith itself, that is at fault. Regarding the money thing, it used to be that people contributed money (or crops or whatever) to their church as part of their regular budget. It was a community investment, sort of like taxes. In order to receive the benefit of the church (which played a larger role in daily life a few centuries ago), you contributed toward its existance. Regular giving toward an institution of faith is not a scam. I am a member of a very liberal church. Giving to our church pays for our building, electricity, gas, maintenance, service equipment, a couple of full-time staff and one or two part-time staffers. None of it is profit toward anybody's pocket -- we barely make enough income to pay the bills that we have. But those of us who contribute do so so that others will have a place to come when they need a place.

I was unfairly generalizing. sorry 'bout that.

[Heehoos]

Oh, no worries. It's a stereotype that Christianity has earned, I guess. That's why I speak up about it to voice the opinion that it's not always like that.

But thank you anyway. :)

[kingmea]

Quote by: Captain Chaos And taking our money for the privilege of buying into such scams!

Once you find salvation through Jesus, you do feel good. Any spontaneous "feeling good"s that you experience might or might not be becuase of Jesus, depending on whether or not you're Christian.

I am sad to admit there are some scams, such as the holy water infomerical(yeah, I couldn't believe my ears either :( ), and the healing power screams, but a few scams do not provide a sufficient representation of Christianity as a faith.

You don't go to hell by doing "unpleasant things," rather you go to hell by expressing your wish not to be with Him. That is a common misconception--- the amount of sins you commit have nothing to do with whether or not you go to heaven.

[Heehoos]

Let's not forget the chocolate dripping Virgin Mary or her on the Holly Grilled (Cheese). Then there's the sagging drywall in the church near New Orleans after the flood that looks like Jesus on the cross.

Whew...

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: kingmea Once you find salvation through Jesus, you do feel good. Any spontaneous "feeling good"s that you experience might or might not be becuase of Jesus, depending on whether or not you're Christian. I am sad to admit there are some scams, such as the holy water infomerical(yeah, I couldn't believe my ears either :( ), and the healing power screams, but a few scams do not provide a sufficient representation of Christianity as a faith. You don't go to hell by doing "unpleasant things," rather you go to hell by expressing your wish not to be with Him. That is a common misconception--- the amount of sins you commit have nothing to do with whether or not you go to heaven.

So, if I express my wish to be with God, even though I do not believe that the Bible is the word of God, even though I do not consider myself Christian, and even though I think the eternal damnation concept is an evil load of poopey - do I still get saved?

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Captain Chaos So, if I express my wish to be with God, even though I do not believe that the Bible is the word of God, even though I do not consider myself Christian, and even though I think the eternal damnation concept is an evil load of poopey - do I still get saved?

Then what deity would you want to be with? One out of your own imagination, created from your own judgment of right and wrong?

[Jack]

We have the capacity to sense the divine presence (whether or not exists).

Please elaborate, as this makes no sense to me. If there is no "divine presence", which is my stance, then how can you propose that we have the capacity to sense that which doesn't exist?

[Chimowowo]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Then what deity would you want to be with? One out of your own imagination, created from your own judgment of right and wrong?

Well, yours. If all it takes is to want to be with God when you die, and you will be, then what happens if you want to be with God when you die, but you don't believe in God or The Bible, or in organized Religion? In otherwords, if all it takes is the want, then is the want alone enough? The obvious answer is no...you have to really believe. Well then it's not the want that is enough, it's the belief.

[jd420]

Please elaborate, as this makes no sense to me. If there is no "divine presence", which is my stance, then how can you propose that we have the capacity to sense that which doesn't exist?

LSD, psilocybin, DMT, ibogaine...

...if we presume (rather than taking the usual agnosticism) that no divine presence is actual... the receptor set is still there. Ream hard enough on direct serotonin/dopamine/norepinephrine receptor agonism in the right balance, people are damn well going to have a religious experience... God or no God.