Are we Ready To Drop God?

[Technosoul]

I think that we might be viewing this topic back to front, or upsides down.

Jesus related the idea that he must leave this planet so that God could send us an indwelling spirit of truth, which spirit would replace our need for scriptural dogma and religion, and such laws of morality. If such was (is) the case then that spirit of truth would be the same thing as logic or reason, which would be adopted inwardly in our thinking and our attitude.

The Greek word for reason means "of God" (even if they did not know about a Jewish God when they coined that word).

So if we believe that Logic and Reason IS the spirit of truth, then this debate becomes of non-effect. But if one turns down that indwelling Source as our guidence in favor of written dogma, governmental laws, or religious rituals, scriptures, or any such "worldly" teaching, then we become distracted from the inner guideance of Logic ( AKA - Spirit of Truth) and we become the phoney advocates for the system that Jesus was teaching us about.

The strange paradox of all this is that the those who have rejected religion and the concepts of God as promoted by religion because they prefer logic and reason end up becoming the true belivers in the truth that holds the best chance for personal salvation relative to bad situations we might encounter during this life, and which can generate the best formulation for understanding stuff. Although they are viewed as the most unworthy among men they in fact end up out front and become the most pleasing in the eyes of the Creator of truism.

[another day]

Quote by: phoenix_fire People condemn themselves. God has done more than any fair-minded person would think required to try to save us from that but all most people want to do is spit in His face for it. You want conscience? Since when have you ever died for someone?

It would be pretty damn easy to die for someone if you were the SON OF GOD and KNEW that you'd be going to heaven. I mean, come on. That's silly. In the myth of Christianity, the Jesus character didn't make any sacrifice at all. None whatsoever.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: another day It would be pretty damn easy to die for someone if you were the SON OF GOD and KNEW that you'd be going to heaven. I mean, come on. That's silly. In the myth of Christianity, the Jesus character didn't make any sacrifice at all. None whatsoever.

Really? Try it.

[Jack]

Really? Try it.

That's not fair. Remember, he did mention a condition to his point;

if you were the SON OF GOD and KNEW that you'd be going to heaven

I don't think Another Day is claiming to be the son of god nor does he claim to know he's going to heaven.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Autolykos Against my better judgement, perhaps, I am going to jump in here. Phoenix, why do you get so offended every time someone discusses alternatives to Christianity, or religion in general? - Rob

That's not exactly it. I get offended when someone says something against God. I care deeply about Him.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: Isherwood That's not fair. Remember, he did mention a condition to his point; I don't think Another Day is claiming to be the son of god nor does he claim to know he's going to heaven.

Pain is pain. I don't think that that in any way mitigated the torture.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: phoenix_fire That's not exactly it. I get offended when someone says something against God. I care deeply about Him.

I get offended when people say God is a being who condemns people to eternal torture or abandonment. God, if he exists, is not a monster.

[Heehoos]

Hi, I'm new here -- first post!

A lot of these arguments on the "believer" side bring about many fundamental questions,some of which have been mentioned.

Why did God create all things? Boredom? Lonliness? LOVE? Need to love? If it is love (the very aspect we attribute to God), then...

Did God truly create ALL things that are known? If so, if nothing could have existed without God, then God created evil, did he not? (that is, if you believe in evil as a sort of personality or worldly influence) And if so, why did God create evil? Why would God create humanity in a world of potential evil?

Perhaps things are not a test to see if we'll pass, but if we will learn?

As far as why we would pursue faith or belief in God, that is the oldest question in the book. As long as humanity has existed, he/she has constantly sought the force outside of themselves that make things the way they are. Why does the wind blow? Why does the sun rise? Where did this life come from? They are eternal questions for humanity and we will always seek the answers. It is part of our make-up, part of what we are.

Personally, I think it's beautiful.

Organized religion has had many uses, both good and bad. The good side is community. Many people of different family influences can come together in a common belief system and enjoy the love of God (or their chosen spiritual practice). It is a very strong thing. It helps us to develop our values as a community.

On the bad side, religion has been used by government after government to influence and even control their people.

Regarding Christianity, it is interesting to look at the early church just after Jesus and how they got along, how they built community, how they each, individually, sought God through Christ. Then Constantine made it part of government, organized it, regulated it, and required it. This act alone completely changed Christianity -- maybe changed it from what Jesus hoped it would be, who knows.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: phoenix_fire People condemn themselves.

Like if they knew they were walking into an eternity of suffering. Please.

Quote by: phoenix_fire God has done more than any fair-minded person would think required to try to save us from that but all most people want to do is spit in His face for it.

Actually, any educated person would do a lot better as our god than God has. We spit in your god's face because he's a disturbing, intolerant, irrational, megalomaniac. He's created a world full of suffering we can't prevent, famine and disease we struggle to survive through, and I'd be damned if you seriously think he's doing a good enough job for us to worship him. He's freaking perfect for crying out loud, and this is the best he can do? I suffer from schizophrenia.. every day I want to die. I want to die and I hope I don't end up in Heaven. I despise your god with every nerve ending in my body. My sister suffered from depression, and her only way of coping was through harming herself. Kids at school found out and started making fun of her. She killed herself, a bullet to the head, and I was the first one to see her dead body. Just open your eyes! Try living in a third world country before spewing this crap. Try having your family torn away from you when a hurricane wipes away your home. Then tell yourself God's doing a GREAT job and this is his plan.

Quote by: phoenix_fire You want conscience? Since when have you ever died for someone?

Big deal. Jesus wasn't the first to die for people he cared for, and he wasn't the last. When a monk's village faces famine, he will willfully bury himself alive in a small box and meditate himself to death.. to heal the suffering of his village. There are so many instances where people have suffered a WHOLE HECK OF A LOT more than Jesus for just ONE PERSON. They didn't even know they had GOD on their side. They just had to TRY even if they knew their chances were at zero because they LOVE. I respect that love, and I respect Jesus's love, but please.. PLEASE save this guilt trip for someone who buys it.

[G. Adams]

Quote by: phoenix_fire That's not exactly it. I get offended when someone says something against God. I care deeply about Him.

I think God is old enough to look out for himself these days.

[phoenix_fire]

Quote by: G. Adams I think God is old enough to look out for himself these days.

That's not the point: I know plenty of people old enough to look out for themselves, but I still care deeply for them and will stand up for them if anyone tries to do them harm.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: phoenix_fire That's not the point: I know plenty of people old enough to look out for themselves, but I still care deeply for them and will stand up for them if anyone tries to do them harm.

If Jesus was the son of God, and God refused to stand up for him when someone tried to do him harm, then why should you stand up for God? Why shouldn't we hold Him to the same standards of ethical behavior He expects from us?

[jd420]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Your favorite word again. Yet I believe you to be deluded. And yes, I think that the way people treat God is disrespectful.

Hmm...

...ever wonder which was more disrespectful : the treatment of God by those who don't believe in Him, or the treatment of God by those who claim to?

...I'm not certain every mortal person would be pleased with the answer I would give...

[Kamehameha34]

I just think that people shouldn't need an obesely muscular man in the sky, hurling lightning bolts at them in order to be motivated to selflessness.

Yes, I just cited Greek mythology to represent religion, and I did so literally, want to fight about it?

[Cephus]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Really? Try it.

Jesus had a bad weekend for your soul. He knew he was coming back to life, he knew he wasn't going to die permanently. Sorry, Jesus didn't really do a damn thing in the Gospel myths and it's silly to think otherwise.

[phoenix_fire]

I doubt I can make you understand it. Heck. Even I can't fathom it, and I'm actually trying.

[Zhavric]

Being an atheist in 2006 is a lot like being Morpheous from The Matrix before he found Neo.

The people living their lives have been given a happy falsehood to believe in and the truth is far uglier than the fantasy. Just as most people aren't ready to be "unplugged" from a modern 21st century life, most theists aren't ready to deal with a godless life. Religion & god have simply become too entrenched into their way of thinking.

Don't get me wrong, just like Morph, I'd love to see a world without Christianity or religion. I believe we're working steadily towards that... and religious leaders know that and are doing all they can to fight it.

[phoenix_fire]

Actually, I rather took the Matrix to be more of a Christian allegory. (You're thinking: I bet you did).

Morpheus is kinda the John the Baptist character (minus the beheading). Neo is trying to trying to free people up from the belief that the material is all there is. They are deluded into believing strictly sensory input as are most people. They run around in circles trying to provide for a life that's not even the real deal. In this story, the truth is fantastic. If I told you that we were really in a big video game run by evil robots from the future, would you believe me? Doubtful.

The citizens of the Matrix are given an illusion of relative peace and stability, when really there's a war going on. The machines (demonic forces) are everywhere and can even "possess" those who are still plugged in to the illusion.

In the Matrix, faith can allow you to bend and break the rules of the game. If you believe enough, you can fly like a jet and punch like an anime fighter. You can even come back from the dead. This is a big tip off for the Neo-as-a-Christ-figure thing. Atheistic prophets don't come back from the dead. If you think taking a bullet to the heart will make you cease to exist, you cease to exist.

No, my friend. If we were in the Matrix, you'd be Smith bait.

[Nathan Struth]

ok you guys reread my first post...we're digressing so much.

By logic I mean the traditional modus tollen laws, I mean conditions and conclusions. I define this as sense but that isn't the question. Reread my posts question...

[Heehoos]

Quote by: Nathan Struth By logic I mean the traditional modus tollen laws, I mean conditions and conclusions. I define this as sense but that isn't the question. Reread my posts question...

Hello, Nathan, I tried to sort of reply to your questions and others' in an earlier post.

No, I don't think we're ready to live without religion. I don't think humanity can live without the spiritual aspect of existance -- about constantly needing to answer the big "why" questions. I truly do believe that it is part of our humanity. From the beginning of our existance we have done so. I think it's difficult for people to conceptualize the idea that life is meaningless and there may be a reason for that.

Humanity needs hope. We need to know that what we do has a purpose of some kind. We need to believe in the happy ending. I truly believe we would be doomed otherwise. We are not robots. We have emotions. We desire and need. We require more than just logic and reason as a motivation to go from one day to the next.

Someone recently mentioned how cruel God is, having created a painful world. I would submit that God created something wonderful and we make it painful. I don't necessarily believe that we are all sinful or aborrent to God. I believe that we were all created with a wonderful potential and we CHOOSE to make life the way it is as a species.

I am Christian by my tradition of faith. But it is told that Siddhartha (Buddha) studied the world around him to find out why there is suffering. He determined that the root of suffering is desire -- desire for what we think we need or for that which we cannot have. If you look at the world's religions at their beginning before humanity molded them into something else, almost all teach the need to focus not only worldly things, but on spirit, on the core of our souls.

Maybe this is why we need faith? Maybe not religion in its organized form (although it is hard to teach others about faith if there is no organization). But to have some way to lovingly teach others how to focus on love, beauty, and one-ness with Creator, simply so that people suffer less -- so that they desire less?