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Ricardo.H · Nov 15, 2006, 10:56 pm

Ok, here is something I have been pondering over for the last few days, and I wanted to see how you guys take on it. It is known as the God Paradox:

Ok, God is said to be all powerful in the bible, and that he can do anything, thus making him the one and only god that created everything. Well, then here is a question. Can God create a rock that is so heavy that even he cannot lift it? It seems so simple at first, the immediate reaction being no, but this itself disproves God. If God is all powerful and can do anything, he should be able to make a rock he can't move. But, if God were to do this, suddenly he would once again no longer all powerful, because he could not move the rock. Thus, the God Paradox is formed.

phoenix_fire · Nov 15, 2006, 11:10 pm

Oh, for Heaven's sakes. There's already a thread on this.

**Jack** · Nov 16, 2006, 12:04 am

And 1,700,000 entries in Google you can read for enlightenment.
I think it's far more entertaining to ask if god can create a god.

knowman · Nov 19, 2006, 03:49 am

Yes, to both parts of the Question, Can God create a rock so heavy that He can not pick up,YES, but He can also create a way to pick it up, God is progressively learning just as His Children are.
Knowman

Eclipse · Nov 19, 2006, 05:45 pm

No he can't. But it does not disprove God in a sense. Here's an argument against it...

Can God make a rock so big that He can't pick it up?

Actually, this site is hilarious. It teaches Christians how to argue against Athiesm so everybody meets a dead end (as always). The idea of God will continue to evolve to points in which you can not reason God to be false so long as people can keep this stuff up and so long as people believe.

But this argument is technically true. It's a silly question to ask once you understand it. I was just to lazy to type it all out for you.

Captain Chaos · Nov 20, 2006, 07:28 pm

This is the infamous riddle of the stone.

Definitions need to be practical. Omnipotence should mean, "the ability to do anything that can be done" rather than "the ability to do anything" - course, I see no reason to assume that a creator is omnipotent, under either definition.

Technosoul · Nov 20, 2006, 09:22 pm

I answered this once before - why not again?

First off, a rock would be a poor example to use because even an earthquake could move most any rock on earth.

But the answer would be that if God first intended to make a rock that he was unable to move then he would be making a choice not to be all-mighty relative to that one project. But if it were a Goddess then She could change her mind and make it movable again. That paradox for a Christian would be like God changing his mind and sending all the "saved souls" to hell, for if God cannot keep his own word then he is not all mighty in the first place.

Keeping one's word, and keeping true to one's intended meaning, would be all important in anyone's book. And what makes God all mighty is that he made a choice not to create something that would void that status, even if He does have the will power to do so. And so the question is basically of non-effect because God is wise enough to do such a thing - but humans built big pryamids with rocks and now we do not know how humans could move such heavy rocks - how about that for a paradox?

Castle · Nov 22, 2006, 07:18 pm

A simplistic question with a point behind it.

The answer you're looking for is no. Such a rock cannot exist, because the existence of God precludes the existence of the rock. God cannot create that which cannot be created.

The point:
God's abilities must be ranked in hierarchy over each other: In this case, we have both logic and lifting power coming above creating power. To illustrate the point: why not simply say yes? God can only lift that which can possibly be lifted. We have defined the rock as one which is impossible to life. God cannot do the logically impossible, so it is of no concern to His omnipotence that He cannot lift the rock.

The 68 · Nov 22, 2006, 11:18 pm

God can't lie. Never does the Bible say that God can do ANYTHING.

Castle · Nov 23, 2006, 12:07 am

Quote:

Quote by: The 68

Never does the Bible say that God can do ANYTHING.

Wanna bet?

Quote:

Quote by: Genesis 18:14

Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

Quote:

Quote by: Job 42:2

I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

Quote:

Quote by: Jeremiah 32:27

Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Quote:

Quote by: Matthew 19:26

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Etc.

The 68 · Nov 23, 2006, 12:16 am

Yes, I made a mistake. I worded my post wrong. I should have said:

Never does the Bible MEAN God can do absolutely anything. These verses are, of course, talking about the power of God to do those things that are impossible to man. Of course, however, it is impossible for God to do anything that would make him imperfect, or not fit what the Bible says about Him. Yes, I realize that last post looks Idiotic....Please kindly disregard.

Castle · Nov 23, 2006, 12:22 am

Quote:

Quote by: The 68

Of course, however, it is impossible for God to do anything that would make him imperfect, or not fit what the Bible says about Him.

Ah, very well. There I agree, and the definition of omnipotence really ought to be amended as such; the current one falls far too easily to the paradox of the rock.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this:

Quote:

Quote by: Castle

why not simply say yes? God can only lift that which can possibly be lifted. We have defined the rock as one which is impossible to life. God cannot do the logically impossible, so it is of no concern to His omnipotence that He cannot lift the rock.

Is there any particular reason why most choose to answer 'no', rather than 'yes'

The 68 · Nov 23, 2006, 12:33 am

Either way, I don't think God would even bother to create a rock he could not lift, although I am surprised that nobody has posted the mindless stereotypical christian response to this question, that being: "God is too big and powerful for our feeble minds to understand, and you can ask him when we get to Heaven." Sure, that may be valid, but it's certainly no fun to debate about, and yields no enlightenment whatsoever on the subject.

Castle · Nov 23, 2006, 12:38 am

Quote:

Quote by: The 68

Sure, that may be valid

It's not valid. It's an idiotic response, and it's a ridiculous cop-out. God is defined as omnipotent; biblical evidence supports this. God (like everything) is bound by logic. There's nothing self-contradicting about the rock. The question must be answerable in any self-consistent theology.

The 68 · Nov 23, 2006, 12:42 am

So, if God created logic, then he is bound by it? If God is truly omnipotent, he wouldn't be bound by logic. He could change logic, rewire all our heads, then make us forget that logic was ever any different, if it was necessary to do something "illogical."

Castle · Nov 23, 2006, 12:44 am

Quote:

Quote by: The 68

So, if God created logic, then he is bound by it?

God didn't create logic, just as he didn't create 'good'. It comes with the package. All is bound by it.

Quote:

Quote by: The 68

If God is truly omnipotent, he wouldn't be bound by logic.

:eek: Didn't we just agree that that definition of omnipotent was sadly lacking?

Quote:

Quote by: The 68

He could change logic, rewire all our heads, then make us forget that logic was ever any different, if it was necessary to do something "illogical."

You give me a hypothetical situation in which God could break logical laws (e.x. a situation in which God both exists and doesn't exist) and I'll listen.

The 68 · Nov 23, 2006, 12:55 am

Yeah, I gotcha. I believe that the first thing in existance was the timeless GOD. As he began to create, he defined "logic","Good", "Evil", etc, and in doing so, set restraints on himself that even he can't break, or the entire thing he set up would fall apart. That's the gist of our discussion, and I agree. He can't defy logic in that sense, because if he did, he'd break the order he set up. That's correct. I slightly misunderstood you. We did indeed agree that the definition of omnipotent is sadly lacking. For example: If God was omnipotent in the current flawed sense of the word, he could cause another worldwide flood. However, that would make what he said in genesis false, therefore turning his word into a lie. Because God cannot lie, he would cease to be God. He can't do that, because his system of existance would fall apart.

Castle · Nov 23, 2006, 01:11 am

Yeah, that's about what I think. Close enough as to not be worthy of further nitpicking.

**Jack** · Nov 23, 2006, 03:06 am

Eh, maybe. Maybe not.

Quote:

He can't do that, because his system of existance would fall apart.

The minute you say that god "cannot", you return to the paradox in that, based on the attributes ascribed to the god of the christian bible, god cannot not be able to do anything. If that is the case, then he cannot be the bible-based god.

These mental gymnastics are fun basically because there isn't a neat, tidy solution to them. The only way to "solve" the paradox is to dismiss the underlying premise. God does not exist.

Castle · Nov 23, 2006, 03:14 am

Quote:

Quote by: Isherwood

The minute you say that god "cannot", you return to the paradox in that, based on the attributes ascribed to the god of the christian bible, god cannot not be able to do anything.

This is patently false. God cannot create a square circle. Why? Because there's no such thing; the very concept contradicts itself. Does this contradict omnipotence? Of course not. It's absurd to suggest that God could do things that cannot, by definition, be done. By the same token, God cannot do immoral things. And by the same token, God cannot create a rock that He cannot lift; such a thing cannot exist if God does.

Nov 15, 2006, 10:56 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Ricardo.H Sedimentary Rock Posts: 6	God Paradox Ok, here is something I have been pondering over for the last few days, and I wanted to see how you guys take on it. It is known as the God Paradox: Ok, God is said to be all powerful in the bible, and that he can do anything, thus making him the one and only god that created everything. Well, then here is a question. Can God create a rock that is so heavy that even he cannot lift it? It seems so simple at first, the immediate reaction being no, but this itself disproves God. If God is all powerful and can do anything, he should be able to make a rock he can't move. But, if God were to do this, suddenly he would once again no longer all powerful, because he could not move the rock. Thus, the God Paradox is formed.

Nov 15, 2006, 11:10 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	Oh, for Heaven's sakes. There's already a thread on this. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6

Nov 16, 2006, 12:04 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 14,209	And 1,700,000 entries in Google you can read for enlightenment. I think it's far more entertaining to ask if god can create a god. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Nov 20, 2006, 07:28 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Captain Chaos Shifting Paradigms Location: Flowery Branch, GA Posts: 3,102	This is the infamous riddle of the stone. Definitions need to be practical. Omnipotence should mean, "the ability to do anything that can be done" rather than "the ability to do anything" - course, I see no reason to assume that a creator is omnipotent, under either definition. Do all things with love.

Nov 22, 2006, 11:18 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
The 68 Zombie Location: Lincoln County, TN Posts: 99	God can't lie. Never does the Bible say that God can do ANYTHING. Just someone who is sick and tired of gray areas, political correctness, and the entitlement mindset.

Nov 19, 2006, 03:49 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
knowman Sedimentary Rock Posts: 6	Yes, to both parts of the Question, Can God create a rock so heavy that He can not pick up,YES, but He can also create a way to pick it up, God is progressively learning just as His Children are. Knowman

Nov 19, 2006, 05:45 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Eclipse Igneous Magma Posts: 248	No he can't. But it does not disprove God in a sense. Here's an argument against it... Can God make a rock so big that He can't pick it up? Actually, this site is hilarious. It teaches Christians how to argue against Athiesm so everybody meets a dead end (as always). The idea of God will continue to evolve to points in which you can not reason God to be false so long as people can keep this stuff up and so long as people believe. But this argument is technically true. It's a silly question to ask once you understand it. I was just to lazy to type it all out for you.

Nov 20, 2006, 09:22 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
Technosoul Volcanic Erupter Posts: 8,936	I answered this once before - why not again? First off, a rock would be a poor example to use because even an earthquake could move most any rock on earth. But the answer would be that if God first intended to make a rock that he was unable to move then he would be making a choice not to be all-mighty relative to that one project. But if it were a Goddess then She could change her mind and make it movable again. That paradox for a Christian would be like God changing his mind and sending all the "saved souls" to hell, for if God cannot keep his own word then he is not all mighty in the first place. Keeping one's word, and keeping true to one's intended meaning, would be all important in anyone's book. And what makes God all mighty is that he made a choice not to create something that would void that status, even if He does have the will power to do so. And so the question is basically of non-effect because God is wise enough to do such a thing - but humans built big pryamids with rocks and now we do not know how humans could move such heavy rocks - how about that for a paradox?

Nov 22, 2006, 07:18 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Castle Igneous Magma Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 265	A simplistic question with a point behind it. The answer you're looking for is no. Such a rock cannot exist, because the existence of God precludes the existence of the rock. God cannot create that which cannot be created. The point: God's abilities must be ranked in hierarchy over each other: In this case, we have both logic and lifting power coming above creating power. To illustrate the point: why not simply say yes? God can only lift that which can possibly be lifted. We have defined the rock as one which is impossible to life. God cannot do the logically impossible, so it is of no concern to His omnipotence that He cannot lift the rock.

Nov 23, 2006, 12:16 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
The 68 Zombie Location: Lincoln County, TN Posts: 99	Yes, I made a mistake. I worded my post wrong. I should have said: Never does the Bible MEAN God can do absolutely anything. These verses are, of course, talking about the power of God to do those things that are impossible to man. Of course, however, it is impossible for God to do anything that would make him imperfect, or not fit what the Bible says about Him. Yes, I realize that last post looks Idiotic....Please kindly disregard. Just someone who is sick and tired of gray areas, political correctness, and the entitlement mindset.

Nov 23, 2006, 12:33 am	#13 (permalink) (top)
The 68 Zombie Location: Lincoln County, TN Posts: 99	Either way, I don't think God would even bother to create a rock he could not lift, although I am surprised that nobody has posted the mindless stereotypical christian response to this question, that being: "God is too big and powerful for our feeble minds to understand, and you can ask him when we get to Heaven." Sure, that may be valid, but it's certainly no fun to debate about, and yields no enlightenment whatsoever on the subject. Just someone who is sick and tired of gray areas, political correctness, and the entitlement mindset.

Nov 23, 2006, 12:42 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
The 68 Zombie Location: Lincoln County, TN Posts: 99	So, if God created logic, then he is bound by it? If God is truly omnipotent, he wouldn't be bound by logic. He could change logic, rewire all our heads, then make us forget that logic was ever any different, if it was necessary to do something "illogical." Just someone who is sick and tired of gray areas, political correctness, and the entitlement mindset.

Nov 23, 2006, 12:55 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
The 68 Zombie Location: Lincoln County, TN Posts: 99	Yeah, I gotcha. I believe that the first thing in existance was the timeless GOD. As he began to create, he defined "logic","Good", "Evil", etc, and in doing so, set restraints on himself that even he can't break, or the entire thing he set up would fall apart. That's the gist of our discussion, and I agree. He can't defy logic in that sense, because if he did, he'd break the order he set up. That's correct. I slightly misunderstood you. We did indeed agree that the definition of omnipotent is sadly lacking. For example: If God was omnipotent in the current flawed sense of the word, he could cause another worldwide flood. However, that would make what he said in genesis false, therefore turning his word into a lie. Because God cannot lie, he would cease to be God. He can't do that, because his system of existance would fall apart. Just someone who is sick and tired of gray areas, political correctness, and the entitlement mindset.

Nov 23, 2006, 01:11 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
Castle Igneous Magma Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 265	Yeah, that's about what I think. Close enough as to not be worthy of further nitpicking.